for a complete & possibly better but still problematic english
rendering of the possibly critical italian text or subtext please see
part 1 article 3 here
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/treaty.htm
but can anyone who has seen the entire flight of steps describe
its length
photos seem to indicate its height & width are irregular
that much seems clear
but what i would really like to see or fully imagine at this point is
an aerial view or architectural plan of the entire piazza with
colonnades & steps in full detail
also can anyone say
are there any actual itva border markers to be found anywhere
or is the whole itva shebang just defined by this possibly lost
map & the outlines of certain buildings shown on it
with the possible help of 2 possibly conflicting textual references
for all these become the critical questions in determining if the
border really follows any manmade features
let alone any nonstraight ones
& if the border is truly delimited entirely by the outer edges of
buildings
then not just the main cigars but a whole box of others may well
await us here on itva
& perhaps only here
in the entire world of de jure international borders
for surely a border delimited by the outermost edge of the entire
colonnade & projections cannot yet be dismissed out of hand in
favor of some still questionable division of these structures
plus
elsewhere along itva as defined by this map some other
nonstraight edges will surely be found for us to celebrate
for their irregularity
& i would guess
not only in the horizontal dimension
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
<orc@o...> wrote:
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus"
> <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > I, too, would love to know exactly how the Lateran Treaty of
> 1929 delimited the
> > boundary along and about the colonnade.
>
> well if i understand the italian rightly in
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/scv1.htm
> the delimitation is primarily indicated not by the treaty text but by
a
> map that is annexed to the treaty
>
> & tho the best available italian & vatican copies or versions of
> this map differ slightly
> as indicated in figures 2a & 2b therein
> they nevertheless apparently agree in showing itva follow the
> outer curvature of the outer colonnade
>
>
> however there are also in the treaty text 2 verbal descriptions of
> the limits of italian police jurisdiction
>
> but i cant tell if these were intended as further substantiation of
> the delineation shown on the map
> nor can i be sure they even agree with each other
>
> one apparently indicates
> the outer lines & prolongation of the colonnade
>
> & the other apparently indicates
> the foot of the steps leading to the basilica
>
>
> it is noteworthy that one possible reading of the latter
description
> is apparently what is used in figures 3a & 3b
>
> but this is apparently not the only possible reading of that
> description
>
> nor does it take any account of the second verbal description
>
>
> it is evidently possible however to read both verbal
descriptions
> & the map all together in the single sense that itva follows the
> curving edge of the outermost projection of the entire
colonnade
> & therefore specifically the curving edge of its lowest stair step
> rather than the straight outer edges of the columnar plinths
>
>
> the only difficulty i can see with this most expansive possible
> reading is that the flight of steps does not appear to be of
> uniform height or width
> evidently owing to the slope of the surrounding terrain
>
> indeed
> since the steps are entirely missing from some of the pictures
> it seems this reading might require one to project the curve of
> their lowest riser entirely around the colonnade
>
> & if this is correct then only some part or parts of this curving
> border segment would actually follow a manmade feature
> while the rest of the sector would merely describe the figure of
> the projection of that feature
>
> but in any case that would net us at least 1 real cigar
>
> however it is only a hypothesis & possibly an ignorant one at
that
>
>
> for an alternative cigar if necessary
> i have been noticing in these same maps how the opposite
end
> of the vatican border likewise appears to follow some also
> possibly irregular walls of some edifice
>
> so even if the curving colonnade edge is indeed a bust
> we still might not have to go very far to find a true example of a
> border delineation that follows a nonstraight manmade feature