--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002" <orc@o...> wrote:
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <
> mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > In one of your messages "Re: Grosvenor on maps," you inventoried a smal=
l =
> but
> > intriguing collection of ghost points within the present USA. I commen=
d =
> you for
> > your ingenuity in rooting these out
>
> thanx lowell
> i have been savoring your appreciation all this time because i happen
> to agree with it
> & am exuberant about zeroing in further on all of these ghost
> tricountry points of the usa
>
> & commend such national fun to nationals of all nations
>
> more below
>
>
> , but I must differ with your interpretation
> > of one. You wrote:
> >
> > > btw
> > > the one other de jure ghost tricountry point possibility in the usa
> > > 1783esgbus1803
> > > may fall at the point where the full mississippi river descends into
> > > louisiana
> > > if i have it all right
> >
> > As I understand you, the point that you intend is the southwestern corn=
er=
> of
> > Mississippi. For the reasons that I will give below, I do not believe =
th=
> at this
> > point was ever an international tripoint.
>
> yes you may well be right
corrections
having finally returned to bus&ss as promised
it now seems to me there was indeed an esgbus there briefly in 1783
contrary to your advice which i already accepted
hahahaha
as well as an esfrus there
or at the perdido crossing of the 31st parallel
in 1800 to 1803
> & your analysis below does show my first guess above was indeed off
> target
> at least in point of its time frame & constituency
>
> but what does appear to have obtained in this general location
> if not at the exact point i mentioned
> then somewhere east of it upon nlat31
> was the de facto but secret 1802esfrus1803
>
> thats the point i was looking for amidst the entire 1783 to 1803
> maelstrom of cessions & retrocessions etc that circulated about this
> point
> or perhaps about somewhere just east of it
> not sure
>
> but do you agree so far
>
>
> for it is not so much that you have struck an item from this precious
> little inventory
> as that you have helped to track & pin it down further
>
> for i am happy to report that in my view this ghost still lives albeit
> considerably transformed from my first sketch of it
>
>
> & if you do agree then where exactly did this 1802esfrus1803 fall
>
> in other words how much of west florida did spain secretly retrocede to
> france with the secret greater louisiana retrocession of 1802
>
> & so exactly where on the 31st parallel did the true if fleeting ghost
> tricountry point i was & am still looking for actually fall
>
>
> i mean if it isnt the same point i have incorrectly specified the
> 1783esgbus1803 above
>
> but maybe another & still more careful reading of bus&ss will suffice
>
>
>
> also i believe i am making a little progress pinning down the 17th
> century de facto frgbnls
>
> the dutch map i mentioned probably overstated things
>
> my sense is that these points really fell somewhere between cooperstown
> & amsterdam new york in the west
> & at roughly springfield mass in the east
>
> beyond in both case were brits on the one hand
> & howling indians & their french allies on the other
>
>
> >
> > The east-west boundary between southeastern Louisiana and Mississippi f=
ol=
> lows
> > the 31st parallel. This line was first mentioned as a boundary in 1763=
. =
> In
> > that year's Treaty of Paris, by which French sovereignty was expunged f=
ro=
> m North
> > America, the Spanish (as allies of the French) had also lost their Flor=
id=
> as.
> > Thus, a 1763 royal proclamation created two new British provinces, East=
F=
> lorida
> > and West Florida, divided at the Apalachicola River, with the 31st para=
ll=
> el
> > specified as the northern boundary of West Florida to the Mississippi R=
iv=
> er.
> > West of the Mississippi was Spanish Louisiana, and north of the 31st pa=
ra=
> llel
> > was, presumably, the Georgia colony (under its charter reaching to the =
So=
> uth
> > Sea).
> >
> > The very next year (1764), however, the British extended the northern b=
ou=
> ndary
> > of West Florida to an east-west line running through the mouth of the Y=
as=
> sous
> > [Yazoo] River (just above present-day Vicksburg). Land north of this l=
in=
> e was
> > given to the new Province of Illinois. This, of course, was one of the=
i=
> rksome
> > British actions calculated to deprive the people of Britain's Atlantic =
co=
> astal
> > colonies of the western lands for which they felt they had fought the F=
re=
> nch and
> > Indians--one of the festering seeds of the coming American Revolution.
> >
> > The British province of West Florida was governed from Fort George at P=
en=
> sacola.
> > The British presence also included Fort Charlotte at Mobile, Fort Bute =
on=
> the
> > Mississippi below Baton Rouge, Fort New Richmond at Baton Rouge, and Fo=
rt=
>
> > Panmure at Natchez.
> >
> > During the American Revolution, Spain declared war on Britain in May 17=
79=
> . Don
> > Bernardo de Gálvez, the Spanish Governor of Louisiana (and later Vicero=
y =
> of New
> > Spain) personally led Spanish forces up the Mississippi from New Orlean=
s =
> and
> > captured Forts Bute, New Richmond, and Panmure in September 1779. He t=
he=
> n
> > sailed eastward along the Gulf Coast, capturing Fort Charlotte in March=
1=
> 780,
> > and besieging Fort George with 3,500 men. The British authorities at P=
en=
> sacola
> > formally surrendered West Florida to the Spanish on May 10, 1781. (The=
> > Daughters of the American Revolution admit to membership the descendant=
s =
> of all
> > Spanish forces who fought under Gálvez!)
> >
> > So, by the time the British recognized American independence in the Tre=
at=
> y of
> > Paris of 1783, West Florida was in Spanish hands. In the treaty, the =
Br=
> itish
> > recognized the boundary of the United States in the west as extending d=
ow=
> n the
> > Mississippi River to the 31st parallel and Spanish sovereignty south of=
t=
> hat.
> > The Spanish, however, claimed the whole of the former British West Flor=
id=
> a
> > northward to the Yazoo as theirs by conquest. They established Fort No=
ga=
> les at
> > Vicksburg in 1791. This matter was not settled between the US and Spai=
n =
> until
> > 1795, when the Pinckney Treaty (Treaty of San Lorenzo el Real) finally =
cl=
> arified
> > the boundary as the 31st parallel. (The discussion above relies upon t=
he=
> first
> > several paragraphs of the Florida section of BUS&SS plus various works =
on=
> the
> > histories of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.)
> >
> > So, at whatever time one considers US sovereignty to have arrived de ju=
re=
> at the
> > corner of the Mississippi River and the 31st parallel (whether 1783 or =
17=
> 95),
> > both the land to the west of the river and to the south of the parallel=
b=
> elonged
> > to Spain. Thus, there was no international tripoint.
> >
> > Lowell G. McManus
> > Leesville, Louisiana, USA