--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <
mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> In one of your messages "Re: Grosvenor on maps," you inventoried a small =
but
> intriguing collection of ghost points within the present USA. I commend =
you for
> your ingenuity in rooting these out
thanx lowell
i have been savoring your appreciation all this time because i happen
to agree with it
& am exuberant about zeroing in further on all of these ghost
tricountry points of the usa
& commend such national fun to nationals of all nations
more below
, but I must differ with your interpretation
> of one. You wrote:
>
> > btw
> > the one other de jure ghost tricountry point possibility in the usa
> > 1783esgbus1803
> > may fall at the point where the full mississippi river descends into
> > louisiana
> > if i have it all right
>
> As I understand you, the point that you intend is the southwestern corner=
of
> Mississippi. For the reasons that I will give below, I do not believe th=
at this
> point was ever an international tripoint.
yes you may well be right
& your analysis below does show my first guess above was indeed off
target
at least in point of its time frame & constituency
but what does appear to have obtained in this general location
if not at the exact point i mentioned
then somewhere east of it upon nlat31
was the de facto but secret 1802esfrus1803
thats the point i was looking for amidst the entire 1783 to 1803
maelstrom of cessions & retrocessions etc that circulated about this
point
or perhaps about somewhere just east of it
not sure
but do you agree so far
for it is not so much that you have struck an item from this precious
little inventory
as that you have helped to track & pin it down further
for i am happy to report that in my view this ghost still lives albeit
considerably transformed from my first sketch of it
& if you do agree then where exactly did this 1802esfrus1803 fall
in other words how much of west florida did spain secretly retrocede to
france with the secret greater louisiana retrocession of 1802
& so exactly where on the 31st parallel did the true if fleeting ghost
tricountry point i was & am still looking for actually fall
i mean if it isnt the same point i have incorrectly specified the
1783esgbus1803 above
but maybe another & still more careful reading of bus&ss will suffice
also i believe i am making a little progress pinning down the 17th
century de facto frgbnls
the dutch map i mentioned probably overstated things
my sense is that these points really fell somewhere between cooperstown
& amsterdam new york in the west
& at roughly springfield mass in the east
beyond in both case were brits on the one hand
& howling indians & their french allies on the other
>
> The east-west boundary between southeastern Louisiana and Mississippi fol=
lows
> the 31st parallel. This line was first mentioned as a boundary in 1763. =
In
> that year's Treaty of Paris, by which French sovereignty was expunged fro=
m North
> America, the Spanish (as allies of the French) had also lost their Florid=
as.
> Thus, a 1763 royal proclamation created two new British provinces, East F=
lorida
> and West Florida, divided at the Apalachicola River, with the 31st parall=
el
> specified as the northern boundary of West Florida to the Mississippi Riv=
er.
> West of the Mississippi was Spanish Louisiana, and north of the 31st para=
llel
> was, presumably, the Georgia colony (under its charter reaching to the So=
uth
> Sea).
>
> The very next year (1764), however, the British extended the northern bou=
ndary
> of West Florida to an east-west line running through the mouth of the Yas=
sous
> [Yazoo] River (just above present-day Vicksburg). Land north of this lin=
e was
> given to the new Province of Illinois. This, of course, was one of the i=
rksome
> British actions calculated to deprive the people of Britain's Atlantic co=
astal
> colonies of the western lands for which they felt they had fought the Fre=
nch and
> Indians--one of the festering seeds of the coming American Revolution.
>
> The British province of West Florida was governed from Fort George at Pen=
sacola.
> The British presence also included Fort Charlotte at Mobile, Fort Bute on=
the
> Mississippi below Baton Rouge, Fort New Richmond at Baton Rouge, and Fort=
> Panmure at Natchez.
>
> During the American Revolution, Spain declared war on Britain in May 1779=
. Don
> Bernardo de Gálvez, the Spanish Governor of Louisiana (and later Viceroy =
of New
> Spain) personally led Spanish forces up the Mississippi from New Orleans =
and
> captured Forts Bute, New Richmond, and Panmure in September 1779. He the=
n
> sailed eastward along the Gulf Coast, capturing Fort Charlotte in March 1=
780,
> and besieging Fort George with 3,500 men. The British authorities at Pen=
sacola
> formally surrendered West Florida to the Spanish on May 10, 1781. (The
> Daughters of the American Revolution admit to membership the descendants =
of all
> Spanish forces who fought under Gálvez!)
>
> So, by the time the British recognized American independence in the Treat=
y of
> Paris of 1783, West Florida was in Spanish hands. In the treaty, the Br=
itish
> recognized the boundary of the United States in the west as extending dow=
n the
> Mississippi River to the 31st parallel and Spanish sovereignty south of t=
hat.
> The Spanish, however, claimed the whole of the former British West Florid=
a
> northward to the Yazoo as theirs by conquest. They established Fort Noga=
les at
> Vicksburg in 1791. This matter was not settled between the US and Spain =
until
> 1795, when the Pinckney Treaty (Treaty of San Lorenzo el Real) finally cl=
arified
> the boundary as the 31st parallel. (The discussion above relies upon the=
first
> several paragraphs of the Florida section of BUS&SS plus various works on=
the
> histories of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.)
>
> So, at whatever time one considers US sovereignty to have arrived de jure=
at the
> corner of the Mississippi River and the 31st parallel (whether 1783 or 17=
95),
> both the land to the west of the river and to the south of the parallel b=
elonged
> to Spain. Thus, there was no international tripoint.
>
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA