it is very complex
there is more in message 614
but i have since ascertained that owing to all the various &
accumulated historical reasons
dating from the 17th to the 20th century
there are today 5 & only 5 distinct sweeps of new castle arc
they are of various radii & are centered on 3 distinct points in new
castle
the old courthouse cupola apex being only the most famous of them
the best of the info in message 644 & much more of interest can be
found in a publication i obtained from the tour guide at the old
courthouse itself
it was a paper delivered at a delaware surveyors society circa 1934
i cant put my hands on it at the moment
but i could try to answer for any specifics not already mentioned in
messages 644 & 614
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@r...>
wrote:
> What is the history on multiple arc designations? I always though
there was
> only the single 12-mile radius arc from the old courthouse cupola
in New
> Castle (to keep those Quakers away from the Duke of York's subjects
on
> Delaware Bay!)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: m06079 [mailto:barbaria_longa@h...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:52 PM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: re mason dixon preliminary points
>
>
> oops
> topozone has been cranky lately
> so here is the same point shown by terraserver
> where the 2 sweeps of the depa arc mentioned in message 644
> imperceptibly merge or blend
> or actually intersect
>
> the point is coincidentally where the kennett & pennsbury township
> border meets delaware
>
> http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=2&s=14&x=139&y=1377&z=18&w=1
>
> nice unusual monument with freehand inscription
>
> still looking for my pic tho
> & will beam it up asap
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079"
<barbaria_longa@h...>
> wrote:
> > thanx
> > & message 644 is full of relevant stuff about this
> > for your & kevins info too
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "bjbutlerus"
<bjbutler@b...>
> > wrote:
> > > Thanks for reminding me, Mike. Some day I really will correct
the text
> :)
> > > BJB
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002" <orc@o...>
wrote:
> > > > good stuff
> > > > tho as previously mentioned
> > > > the depa arc is actually 2 different arcs
> > > > & the prismatic stone within the dupont compound
> > > > or what you are calling the paleotrifinium
> > > > is actually 3 & a half miles south of demdpa
> > > > rather than the mile or so you are indicating
> > > >
> > > > also danson just arrived to confirm that mason & dixon
actually did
> > > > run their west line backwards from modern demdpa all the way
to the
> > > > delaware river near wilmington
> > > > so you may want to correct for that new info in your
presentation also
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > in addition danson confirms all my previous data & surmises
about all
> > > > 3 of the mason dixon preliminary points i had previously
identified
> > > > without adding anything much new
> > > > except he does place the original post marked west
> > > > exactly 2 miles 79 chains 27 links east of modern demdpa
> > > > correcting my admittedly fishy 3 & a half mile figure given
below
> > > > with a new position which i was able to plot approximately at
topozone
> > > >
> > > > however the usgs topo does not confirm any extant monument
anywhere
> > > > near that position
> > > > nor for that matter does it reveal the exact location of the
> > > > stargazers stone 15 miles north of there
> > > > nor of the southernmost point of old philly 31 miles east of
that
> > > > both of which latter however should be much easier to find
from other
> > > > data
> > > >
> > > > the real trick & piece de resistance will be in finding the
original
> > > > post marked west
> > > > even using a gps receiver
> > > > for this post was only a wooden marker & may no longer exist
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > btw
> > > > the point on the delaware river is called the post marked east
> > > > & modern demdpa is called
> > > > the post marked west on the west side & north on the north
side
> > > > to distinguish it from the original
> > > > post marked west
> > > > which was marked only west & only on the west side
> > > >
> > > > monty python couldnt have named them all better
> > > > but these latter 2 especially appear to be a source of
persistent
> > > > confusion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "bjbutlerus"
<bjbutler@b...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > The bottom photo on this page shows the paleotrifinium:
> > > > > http://www.bjbsoftware.com/corners/pointdetail.php3?point=24
> > > > >
> > > > > BJB
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079"
<barbaria_longa@h...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin"
> > > > <flynnk@r...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > As I recall, you're correct that the Post Mark'd West
is *not*
> > > > to
> > > > > same as
> > > > > > > PADEMD. It was a reference point that established the
latitude
> > > > for
> > > > > the west
> > > > > > > line. The actual tripoint was a bit west of the post.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Unfortunately for those who like neat lines and angles,
PAMDDE
> > > > did
> > > > > *not*
> > > > > > > occur at the point where the New Castle Arc met the
west line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & there is more to this story than meets the eye too
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the depa arc as it exists today is actually 2 different
arcs with
> > > > 2
> > > > > > slightly different centers & 2 slightly different radii
> > > > > >
> > > > > > their imperceptible point of intersection falls near the
middle
> > > > of what
> > > > > > appears to be a single sweep of arc running all the way
from the
> > > > > > delaware river down to the mason dixon line
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & the transition point of these 2 slightly different arcs
> > > > > > which has nothing to do with the wedge
> > > > > > is even marked by a special stone
> > > > > > which i have also visited
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it is all extremely complicated & esoteric
> > > > > >
> > > > > > more below
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Instead, the
> > > > > > > 800-acre or so Delaware Notch was the result. IIRC, the
notch at
> > > > > one time
> > > > > > > was claimed by PA after the three counties once
controlled by
> > > > Penn
> > > > > and his
> > > > > > > heirs became Delaware instead of the three lower
counties of
> > > > > Pennsylvania.
> > > > > > > If this claim had stood, the PADEMD tripoint would be
due south
> > > > a
> > > > > mile or so
> > > > > > > of where it presently is
> > > > > >
> > > > > > actually about 3 & a half miles south of demdpa
> > > > > > which is a bit disconcerting
> > > > > > because that is the about same distance east of demdpa i
make the
> > > > > > meridian of the stargazers stone & the post marked west
out to be
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but it could just be a coincidence rather than any
evidence of a
> > > > > > misunderstanding
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the accounts are all very confused tho
> > > > > >
> > > > > > hopefully danson will settle everything
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > anyway i have visited this paleo demdpa point too
> > > > > > which you are referring to
> > > > > > at the south tip of the wedge
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it is within the grounds of a top secret dupont chemical
complex
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i once got a guided tour from their security people
> > > > > >
> > > > > > then when i tried at a later date to revisit this same
compound
> > > > > > i was refused admittance
> > > > > >
> > > > > > this was when i was seeking dew
> > > > > > the westernmost point of delaware
> > > > > > situated a short distance down the demd arc from paleo
demdpa
> > > > > >
> > > > > > this was part of a cardinal news tour of delaware tho
> > > > > > & was only coincidentally riddled with mason dixon stones
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the demd arc btw is based on a third center & a third
radius
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & there are 2 distinct denj arcs too
> > > > > > with still other specs
> > > > > > making 5 entirely different arcs in all among the 4
states i think
> > > > > >
> > > > > > end insertions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > , and PA would have a miniscule "tooth" of territory
> > > > > > > south of the Mason Dixon Line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: m06079 [mailto:barbaria_longa@h...]
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:01 PM
> > > > > > > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] re mason dixon preliminary
points
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > please see below for an addition to the following
excerpts from
> > > > > > > message 10452 about how mason & dixon got to their mdpa
> > > > starting point
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the ref is to a book by edwin danson entitled drawing
the line
> > > > > > > which btw i still havent seen but am looking for
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
<orc@o...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > thanx kevin
> > > > > > > > sounds like a book many of us will enjoy
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > after some searching
> > > > > > > > i believe i have found the location you mentioned on
south
> > > > street
> > > > > > > > & will look for a commemorative plaque or something
> > > > > > > > on the specified north wall
> > > > > > > > next time i blow thru there
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > are there any more data in the book about this most
precious
> > > > > > > > initial point
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Once it was established as a line 15 mi (IIRC)
south of
> > > > > > > > Spruce
> > > > > > > > > > Street in
> > > > > > > > > > > Philadelphia
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > you probably do recall correctly
> > > > > > > > > > as it was to be 15 miles south of the
southernmost point
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > philadelphia at that time
> > > > > > > > > > but how did you arrive at spruce street for it
> > > > > > > > > > & what part of spruce street if you can say
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > My error, it wasn't Spruce bur rather South Street,
then
> > > > known
> > > > > > > > as Cedar
> > > > > > > > > Street (and I used to live in Philly, no lessl
shoulda
> > > > known
> > > > > > > > better).
> > > > > > > > > Anyway, prior to Mason and Dixon's arrival in
Philly, the
> > > > joint
> > > > > > > > commission
> > > > > > > > > of PA and MD reps had stipulated with input from
city
> > > > officials
> > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > "southernmost point in the city" would be the north
wall of
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > house on the
> > > > > > > > > south side of Cedar (now South) Street near the
corner of
> > > > > > > > Second Street. The
> > > > > > > > > constant latitude would be an E-W line 15 miles
south of
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > point. Of
> > > > > > > > > course, because the Delaware River flows SWerly
here, Mason
> > > > > > > > and Dixon had to
> > > > > > > > > survey a course due west from the southernmost
point, far
> > > > > > > > enough to be west
> > > > > > > > > of the presumed place where the New Castle Arc
would drop
> > > > > > > > below the West
> > > > > > > > > Line (the point that should've become PADEMD but
did not
> > > > > > > > because of the
> > > > > > > > > problem of The Wedge) and then drop 15 miles due
south to
> > > > > > > > mark the latitude
> > > > > > > > > of the West Line. (This became the "Post Mark'd
West,"
> > > > which
> > > > > > > > was actually
> > > > > > > > > within the 12-mile New Castle Arc; Mason and Dixon
had to
> > > > > > > > proceed west from
> > > > > > > > > there tp begin the actual PAMD West Line at the Arc
limit.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > (minus the land enclosed by the New Castle arc,
of
> > > > > > > > course),
> > > > > > > > > > > there was a real concern that the MD-VA line
(the right
> > > > bank
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the Potomac)
> > > > > > > > > > > might actually swing so far north that it would
extend
> > > > north
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the MD-PA
> > > > > > > > > > > boundary. Now *that* would have been
interesting.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So what is the speculation here as to how that
> > > > situation
> > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > equitably resolved among VA-MD-PA?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > it might have been equitably resolved the same
way kymotn
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > resolved
> > > > > > > > > > which was for the surveyors to just follow the
agreed
> > > > specs
> > > > > > > > > > whatever happened
> > > > > > > > > > thus producing in that case the kentucky bend
exclave
> > > > > > > > > > & in our speculation a similarly detached western
md
> > > > exclave
> > > > > > > > > > as you anticipate below
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > VA was supposed to have the lands south
> > > > > > > > > > > of the Potomac; but if the river flowed north
of 44 deg
> > > > > > > > latitude,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > actually if the river flowed anywhere north of
the
> > > > latitude
> > > > > > > > agreed in
> > > > > > > > > > 1760 as you describe it above
> > > > > > > > > > or in other words mason & dixons 39d43m17s6
> > > > > > > > > > aka mdn of today
> > > > > > > > > > for example 39d43m15s521 nad27 at mdne
> > > > > > > > > > then it would have done as you say here below
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > it would
> > > > > > > > > > > have punctured PA and cut off eastern MD from
western
> > > > > > > > MD,
> > > > > > > > > > creating a large
> > > > > > > > > > > enclave. How else could this have been resolved?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > i suppose a particularly generous & whimsical pa
mightve
> > > > > > > > given
> > > > > > > > > > to md the part of itself that wouldve fallen
south of the
> > > > > > > > potomac
> > > > > > > > > > & thus produce a sausage chain of 3 mary lands
> > > > > > > > > > connected only by 2 mdmdpava tristate quadripoints
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > However, I wonder whether Virginia would have
interceded
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > claimed the land south of the Potomac that under
these
> > > > > > > > circumstances would
> > > > > > > > > have been north of the Mason Dixon Line and
therefore
> > > > > > > > arguably in PA? Just
> > > > > > > > > think, if the commissioners had said 17 miles
instead of 15
> > > > > > > > miles south of
> > > > > > > > > the southernmost point in Philadelphia, we would
have had
> > > > > > > > this very problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ok so i have returned in the interim to the question of
how
> > > > mason &
> > > > > > > dixon got to their starting point
> > > > > > > & tho i cant reconcile various conflicting latitude
figures
> > > > > > > i have determined from some online sources that the
mentioned
> > > > house
> > > > > > > on the south side of south street near second street
belonged
> > > > to
> > > > > > > thomas plumstead & joseph huddle at the time
> > > > > > > & i am hoping this extra detail may be enough to find
the house
> > > > in
> > > > > > > question
> > > > > > > or its successor
> > > > > > > even if it isnt marked today with a historical plaque
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but that is only preliminary point 1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > in the meantime
> > > > > > > i have also zeroed in on the second preliminary point
mentioned
> > > > above
> > > > > > > situated about 30 or 31 miles due west of the first one
> > > > > > > on the john harlan farm near the forks of the brandywine
> > > > > > > a point actually marked by mason & dixon
> > > > > > > by a monument still known today as the stargazers stone
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so there are now at least these 2 preliminary targets
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but in addition i have also found some additional
indications
> > > > that
> > > > > > > the actual initial point of the mason dixon west line
> > > > > > > aka the post marked west
> > > > > > > may not have been the same point as modern mdne or
demdpa
> > > > > > > but may actually lie some distance east of it
> > > > > > > as i think the above description may also suggest
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so there may actually be 3 preliminary mason dixon
points to
> > > > find
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but can anyone offer any further info about any of
these 3
> > > > points
> > > > > > > before i go off looking for them all
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/
> > > > > > terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
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