this odd but still plausible site
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amcewen/MaineCanpp.ppt
appears to confirm my impression given below that the king of
the netherlands may actually have succeeded in moving gbus
aka caus toward the living thalweg standard
during the course of his otherwise failed arbitration try of 1829
tho the site also indicates that the change he suggested from
midline to thalweg evidently required until 1908 to become fully &
literally realized
& then after all that
the site also indicates
this hard won thalweg standard itself became history by 1934
replaced ironically by a series of metes & bounds representing a
simplification of the thalweg at the time of the survey
& caus has thus remained frozen ever since
notwithstanding subsequent thalweg displacements
a peculiar flipflopping of intentions & regimes
& finally an explanation for the unusual lurches of this border
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
<orc@o...> wrote:
> just realized
> the dry segment of caus on seaway island could indeed have
> been caused either by avulsion or accretion
> since it was after all not part of a true thalweg boundary
> but of a zigzagging chain of metes & bounds & turnpoints
> which approximated to that thalweg at one time
> but which extends in the present case from turnpoint 174
> situated just above seaway island as seen here
>
http://test.topozone.com/map.asp?z=17&n=4710111&e=362910
> &s=48&layer=DRG25&size=l
> all the way to turnpoint 173
> not visible here because it is actually 15 miles away
> almost clear across the lake in fact
>
> & no amount of avulsion or accretion will ever change that line
> nor its continuations in both directions thru any of these other
> fixed turnpoints in the same series
>
http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/coordinates/S
> ECT-K-83.txt
> nor any others anywhere else on caus for that matter
> for i confess i have been unable to find any exceptions
anywhere
> on caus to this distinctive wet turnpoint regime
>
> however
> even after all that revision of my earlier surmise
> i would still guess the cause of the channel change was
avulsive
> rather than accretive
> given that there is an artificial shipping lane on either side of it
>
>
> another & bigger thing i noticed tho
> thanx to this impromptu but comprehensive excursion
> is that caus is actually entirely geodetic from end to end
>
> unlike mxus & most others
> not a stitch of caus wet or dry has been left to chance
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
> <orc@o...> wrote:
> > a few self corrections & additions
> >
> > in the caus or rather gbus treaties of 1782 & 1814
> > the terminology of choice is simply
> > the river
> > or
> > the middle of the river
> > or
> > the middle of the lake
> > wherever a boundary river or lake is mentioned
> > except
> > coincidentally
> > for the very area we are talking about
> >
> > here the 1814 treaty says the boundary runs
> > thru the middle of lake saint clair
> > in a direction to enter that mouth or channel of the river saint
> clair
> > which is usually denominated the old ship channel
> > thence along the middle of said channel
> > between squirrel island on the southeast & hersons island
on
> > the northwest
> > etc etc
> >
> > this passage is interesting even if only tantalizing
> > both because it marks the earliest usage of the term
> > middle of the ship channel
> > in any caus text i can find
> > despite meaning not necessarily the same thing as thalweg
> > & also because it evidently predates the naming &or the
actual
> > alluvial accretions of bassett & seaway islands
> > or maybe predates only the openings of bassett channel &
the
> > saint clair cutoff within an originally much larger squirrel
island
> > embracing all the above modern features
> > for the meaning of this also is unclear
> >
> > but anyway it wasnt until the treaty of 1842
> > pursuant to the failed arbitration of the king of the
netherlands
> in
> > 1829 which had introduced the idea of thalweg for the first
time
> > that the standard gbus or caus terminology was changed to
> > the middle of the main channel of the river
> > & now much more clearly tending to mean thalweg
> > even if still possibly somewhat ambiguous
> >
> > however a specific & clear elaboration of the thalweg or the
> > middle of the shipping channel or something else was soon
> > sidestepped in most places by the adoption of a system of
> > defined courses & distances between angle points
> >
> > the result is that the little dry stitch of caus on seaway island
is
> > not unique because the boundary line at many of the narrows
> &
> > canoe portages in the boundary waters is defined by just
such
> a
> > series of courses & distances & angle points
> >
>
http://test.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=5330194&e=686028
> > &s=24&layer=DRG25&size=m
> > wherein the zigzagging metes & bounds are probably eluded
> at
> > times by the narrow & also shifty streamlets that originally
> > defined the boundary in such places
> >
> > but even without such unknowable minor lapses
> > & a swamp portage i cant evaluate
> >
>
http://test.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=5338958&e=644861
> > &s=24&layer=DRG25
> > & another possible delta avulsion formation i also cant be
sure
> > about
> >
>
http://test.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=5374350&e=457541
> > &s=48&layer=DRG25
> > there is an undeniable height of land portage i did forget
about
> >
>
http://test.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=48.0974&lon=-90.5622&s
> > =24&layer=DRG25&size=l
> >
> > so in a nutshell the corrections are
> > the dry stitch on seaway island is not unique after all but
> merely
> > quite rare on the waterway sectors of caus
> >
> > & caus does not by & large follow thalwegs the way mxus &
> most
> > other river borders do
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
> > <orc@o...> wrote:
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Sanders
> > > <hilversum96@y...> wrote:
> > > > Now you've stirred my curiosity, :)
> > >
> > > great
> > > i love the stuff
> > > & you see how most prefer to fluff & duff
> > >
> > > more below
> > >
> > > > I based my low water theory on living on Lake Huron
> > > > and watching the high water levels fluctuate from year
> > > > to year. Dry winters usually mean siginificantly lower
> > > > water levels on all the Great Lakes during the next
> > > > summer. But the ups and downs always average out in
> > > > the short term.
> > > >
> > > > However, my neighbors tell me that our beach wasn't
> > > > here when they moved here in 1969. Their boathouse,
> > > > which is now separated by a hundred or so feet of
> > > > beach from the shoreline, was originally right on the
> > > > water. So the high water mark has retreated that far
> > > > over 34 years.
> > > >
> > > > Place that scenario in the St. Clair flats, I
> > > > reasoned, and it's possible that sandbars could become
> > > > permanently exposed, and islands could increase in
> > > > size over 30 or 40 years.
> > >
> > > wonderful
> > > i am with you loud & clear on all the above
> > >
> > > > I'm also guessing that the shipping channel is the
> > > > same one used before the Seaway by Great Lakes
> > > > freighters, and dredged to accomodate ocean-going
> > > > ships when the Seaway was built. Also that the border
> > > > always follows the main shipping channel.
> > >
> > > ok i would second guess on both of these guesses tho
> > > as i think you also do below
> > >
> > > i believe the border from lake of the woods to akwesasne
did
> > all
> > > begin by following the main shipping channel or thalweg
> > > but clearly the dry boundary on seaway island is
exceptional
> if
> > > not unique along this vast reach of caus in no longer
> following
> > > any channel
> > >
> > > & such a desertion of the border by the channel could only
> > have
> > > occurred suddenly & not gradually
> > > like say during a huge spring flood
> > > or if the main shipping channel was ever rerouted by
design
> > >
> > > If the
> > > > current channel had been cut through Seaway Island in
> > > > 1958, and the border re-aligned to follow it, we'd
> > > > know about it, for lack of better words.
> > > >
> > > > It's possible that the Walpole Island seaway project
> > > > involved cutting a new water path through Bassett
> > > > Island (the "cutoff" on the topo map). That would have
> > > > created a new island, appropriately named "Seaway."
> > >
> > > yes this is exactly my guess
> > > perhaps circa 1959
> > > & it would explain when & why the border didnt come along
> for
> > > the ride to the new cutoff
> > > but not yet when or why seaway island grew into the usa
> > >
> > > my guess for that is partly the lowering water levels you
> > describe
> > > but especially the dredging of the saint clair flats canal
> > > date unknown but possibly circa 1959 too tho maybe much
> > later
> > > & which appears to have included a deliberate new riprap
or
> > > embankment plus landfill additions to seaway island
behind
> it
> > > including the complete backfilling of part of the original
> > > navigation channel along the caus line
> > >
> > > hence this so precious & probably unique little dry stitch
> along
> > > an otherwise completely wet seam
> > >
> > > > (Thanks for those Walpole Island links, BTW. That's
> > > > always been a favorite place of mine.)
> > > >
> > > > You'd really need to compare the current topo with a
> > > > pre-1958 large scale map of Lake St. Clair. None of my
> > > > old large-scale SE MI road maps cover Harsens Island
> > > > or the St. Clair flats. (The current AAA, American
> > > > Auto Club, SE MI map, 1 inch to 3.5 miles but not
> > > > exactly a definitive reference for shoreline
> > > > alignments, does, but doesn't show the sliver of
> > > > Seaway Island extending into the USA.)
> > > >
> > > > Or it might be the time for a one-day border
> > > > expedition to the far southern tip of Harsen's Island,
> > > > to see what can be seen.
> > > >
> > > > Either way, as with the knothole in the board fence
> > > > out by the nudist camp, I'll be looking into it, :)
> > >
> > > bravo
> > > & we will be with you looking over it