With continental boundaries, sometimes the natural ones are adhered
to. Natural means: according to animals, plants etc. occurring in one
or another continent. A difficult criterium, of course. That is why
man-made boundaries are sometimes used. The Asia-Europe one seems, on
the northern part at least, to be based on ancient boundaries from
the time the Russian empire had yet to reach beyond the Ural
mountains. Siberia was like a Russian colony, when it was conquered,
and not directly part of Russia proper.
One of the questions is: is the Europe-Asia boundary running along
the highest Caucasian mountains, or along the southern Soviet border
(the southern Armenian and Azeri borders)?
Another one: is Turkey split into a European and an Asian part? (I
tend to think it is)
3. And Cyprus? Is it European?
4. New Guinea? Asian? Half Asian and half Australian (with the 141-
Fly-141&a-bit boundary)? Australian (and thus a split Indonesia)?
5. (Yes indeed) Egypt? Split or along the Egypt-Israel boundary? What
about Gaza then?
6. (Yes indeed too) Panama?
7 and etc. The Azores, the Canaries, Jan Mayen, the Diomedes, all
kinds of Pacific islands, ...., ...., etc.
A lot of hypothetical and maybe not very interesting questions, but
if I was an inhabitant of a potential intercontinental border area,
especially if it was a dry one, I'd put a border mark there and let
the tourists pour in...
Peter S.
--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> i like to think the 2 great canals form the 2 great divides of the
4 great
> continents
> not that europe & australia & antarctica are not great mind you
> but i have also seen the colombia panama & the egypt israel
boundaries
> represented as the true lines also
>
> still the canals are so nice & neat
> & they do represent physical discontinuities
> which seems to be the whole point
>
> & no harm in this either
> since all 3 of the great intercontinental divides are thus actually
human
> artworks
>
> m
>
>
> >
> >The Asia-Europe boundary markers come as a huge surprise to me.
> >
> >I have always thought that the Ural mountain boundary was just a
broad
> >undefined aproximate line, and now there are markers!
> >
> >Where is the Asia-Africa boundary line then? and N - S America?
> >
> >Jesper
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "michael donner" <m@...>
> >To: <BoundaryPoint@y...>
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:30 PM
> >Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Contient marker
> >
> >
> >gorgeous stuff peter
> >
> >this is our finest happy hour
> >
> >wonderful to see how a presumably all natural boundary still had
to be
> >diligently searched out & agreed upon
> >& how an initially vague consensus gradually grew into official
reality
> >
> > yet with seemingly nothing of consequence ever really dependent
on it
> >
> >
> >i would suggest that this round score of obelisks redeem all
obeliskoids
> >everywhere & naturally comprise a premium search category
> >
> >
> >also the fact that parts of the intercontinental boundary dont
coincide
> >with any administrative boundaries only emphasizes its rarefaction
& purity
> >
> >so it is truly a monumental line
> >& especially so wherever it is not a boundary
> >
> >m
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Another fine Europe-Asia boundary marker. Nice one.
> >>
> >>This boundary is intriguing: it is a continent boundary, but there
> >>are sections of it that don't coincide with any administrative
> >>boundary. This is why even the Russians don't always know for sure
> >>where that boundary is.
> >>
> >>I found two Russian articles on the internet, which I have
translated
> >>for you. Do visit the second article yourself, though: it has nice
> >>illustrations.
> >>
> >>The first one:
> >>
> >>The Sibirka - a boundary stream
> >>
> >>Yuriy Dunayev
> >>
> >>Ten kilometres west of Nizhneye Selo, on the road to
Staroutkinsk, we
> >>cross a bridge over the little river that bears the name Sibirka.
It
> >>starts on the eastern slope of the Kirgishan heights and after 16
> >>kilometres pours its waters into the Chusovaya from the left.
> >>The well-known scholar of Siberian history P.A. Slovtsov
considered
> >>this little river the boundary of ancient Siberia. Before the Ural
> >>was visited by Alexander Humboldt and Gustav Rose, however, in the
> >>world of science the name Ural was given to a less significant
> >>height, which is situated considerably more to the west - between
the
> >>coach stations Kirgishanskaya and Grobovskaya, and which
constitutes
> >>the water divide between some tributaries of the Chusovaya and the
> >>Ufa.
> >>Peter the Greats ambassador to China, Izbrant Ides, considered,
for
> >>example, the right bank of the Chusovaya, where the Stroganov
> >>settlements ended, at the place the Mezhevaya Utka flows into the
> >>Chusovaya, as the beginning of Asia. Academician I.G. Gmelin, who
is
> >>known for his many years of travel through Siberia with S. Müller,
> >>travelled from Kungur to Yekaterinburg almost exactly along the
> >>present Moscow-Siberia trail, and considered the Ural mountain
range
> >>to be one of the ridges that runs parallel to the Ural, and to
which
> >>belongs Klenovaya mountain, at the foot of which at that time the
> >>boundary post was situated.
> >>Doctor A. Erman from Berlin, who travelled across the Ural in 1828
> >>together with the Norwegian scientist professor Heistens and
> >>lieutenant Douai, had his attention drawn by his coachmen to
> >>Kirgishan mountain, who said that that's where the boundary
between
> >>Russia and Siberia is. That's why it is not surprising that P.A.
> >>Slovtsov too considered the little river Sibirka to be the
boundary
> >>river. He wasn't mistaken, either.
> >>A testimony of the fact that the boundary used to run along this
> >>little river is the find by the pupils of Staroutkinsk school no.
13
> >>of an ancient boundary stone on one of the banks of the Sibirka.
This
> >>stone divided, according to its inscription, Muscovy and the
Sibirian
> >>khanate. That is why the stream Sibirka, which flows into the
> >>Chusovaya at a spot at 57°09' N. lat., is the most ancient
boundary
> >>of Russia and Siberia, and this is why it got its name, too.
> >>By the way, A. Dmitriev in "Permskaya starina" mentions, that in
1681
> >>the village Sibirka was situated on the banks of the river - and
> >>consisted of only one farm.
> >>
> >>Source: <<http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-
06.html>
> >>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
> >><http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
> >>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html
> >>
> >>The second one (yes, Russians seem to call every boundary marker
an
> >>obelisk!):
> >>
> >>Boundary guard in the Ural
> >>
> >>V. Terentyev
> >>
> >>More than three thousand kilometres the Ural mountains stretch
from
> >>north to south. This mountainous boundary in the centre of Russia
is
> >>firmly established and is maintained to this day. This is a big
merit
> >>of the great statesman and explorer of the Ural, Vasiliy Nikitich
> >>Tatishchev. He is the first Russian that called these mountains
Ural.
> >>
> >>Tatishchev was also the man that came to the conclusion the Ural
> >>mountains were on the border of two parts of the world: Europe and
> >>Asia. This boundary, drawn by V.N. Tatishchev two and a half
> >>centuries ago, in spite of its conditional nature, still holds its
> >>historical meaning, is known the world over and is fixed by many
> >>obelisks with the inscription "Europe-Asia".
> >>
> >>The placing of these started in the Ural mountains already in the
> >>last century and is still being continued. The boundary markers
were
> >>put up along the entire Ural range. They continue to attract
> >>tourists, because every one of them is different and has its own
> >>look. At present there are approximately twenty obelisks. A
precise
> >>figure cannot be given, because no one has ever counted them, and
> >>news of them mostly comes from scholars of local history and
tourists.
> >>
> >>In the central Ural area, in the Sverdlovsk province and around
> >>Nizhniy Tagil, there are many interesting and originally
constructed
> >>border obelisks. At the occasion of the visit to our region of the
> >>successor to the throne, the future Russian emperor Alexander II
in
> >>1837, the first marker "Europe-Asia" was placed in the Ural
> >>mountains - a marble pyramid with the coat-of-arms of the czar.
After
> >>the October revolution it was destroyed, being a symbol of czarist
> >>power. On this spot in 1926 a new obelisk was erected. It stands
on
> >>the Siberian trail some forty kilometres from Yekaterinburg, in
the
> >>Pervouralsk rayon.
> >>
> >>Another monument from the last century, built in 1868 by order
and at
> >>the expense of the gold industrialists of the Northern Ural, can
> >>still be seen today. It stands at the village Kedrovka on the road
> >>>from Kushva to Serebryanka. It is made of cast iron, and the form
> >>resembles a bell tower. The central part is crowned by a red,
raised
> >>cupola, and on the corners are round columns, that are also
crowned
> >>by small cupolas. They used to be gilded, and on the back side the
> >>czarist coat-of-arms shined. In the civil war the obelisk was
> >>destroyed. But tourists of the Nizhnyaya Salda factory have
recently
> >>restored it.
> >>
> >>The address of another boundary marker is probably known to many:
the
> >>mountain pass crossing the Vysokie Gory ridge near the village of
> >>Uralets on the road Nizhniy Tagil-Visim. It is a square column
with a
> >>height of six metres. On top of it is a model of the earth globe,
> >>around which along a steel orbit turn a satellite and the space
> >>ship "Vostok".
> >>
> >>>From Nizhniy Tagil another marker can be reached: at the 25th
> >>kilometre of the Serebryanskiy trail you are met by a stele,
placed
> >>there in honour of the 50th anniversary of October.
> >>
> >>Interesting are the geographical location and the history of the
> >>northernmost of all boundary markers "Europe-Asia". It stands at
the
> >>coast of the Yugorskiy Shar strait. Here the Ural range "dives"
into
> >>the waters of the Arctic Ocean. The marker was placed here in
1973 by
> >>the members of an expedition on the ship "Zamora", sailing from
> >>Archangel to Dickson. This is a modest and simple obelisk. They
got a
> >>rusty anchor somewhere, attached a chain to it, and to a metal
pipe a
> >>sign was attached, with the inscription "Europe-Asia" on it.
> >>
> >>Further, along the whole Ural range, obelisks form a chain, going
> >>>from north to south right to the city of Orenburg.
> >>
> >>Apart from the official "registered" obelisks there are in the
Ural
> >>mountains a whole range of do-it-yourself ones, put up by
tourists,
> >>school children, forest workers. For example, in the vicinity of
> >>Tagil near the village of Yelizavetinskoye on the old winter trail
> >>Tagil-Visim woodcutters have put up their sign: they planted a
pine
> >>pole of about four metres in the ground, and on a surface made
flat
> >>at the top they cut out the words "Europe-Asia". And in this way
the
> >>boundary signs are put up.
> >>
> >>On the pictures: this is how the boundary markers look like in the
> >>Central Ural mountains; the northernmost obelisk on the bank of
the
> >>Arctic Ocean.
> >>
> >>Source: <<http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
> >>http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
> >><http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm
> >>
> >>Peter S.
> >>
> >>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., granthutchison@c... wrote:
> >>> > <<http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?
http%>
> >>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%
>
> >>><http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?
http%>
> >>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%
> >>> 3A//www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/reading.html
> >>>
> >>> Ah, the only border monument mentioned in this group that I've
> >>> actually visited. I hung out of the space between two carriages
on
> >>> the Trans-Siberian railway, camera at the ready, counting the km
> >>> markers towards 1777. Then the thing shot past at 60mph, and I
hit
> >>> the shutter button more by reflex than anything else. The
picture
> >>> turned out perfectly composed, as if I'd stood beside the line
and
> >>> taken all the time in the world to line up and shoot!
> >>> The railway side (the only side I saw) has "<-Europe" and "Asia-
>"
> >>in
> >>> Cyrillic, as I recall. I'll dig out the slide and project it to
> >>make
> >>> sure.
> >>>
> >>> Grant
> >>
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