peter
>One of the questions is: is the Europe-Asia boundary running along
>the highest Caucasian mountains, or along the southern Soviet border
>(the southern Armenian and Azeri borders)?
>
>Another one: is Turkey split into a European and an Asian part? (I
>tend to think it is)
>
>3. And Cyprus? Is it European?
>
>4. New Guinea? Asian? Half Asian and half Australian (with the 141-
>Fly-141&a-bit boundary)? Australian (and thus a split Indonesia)?
>
>5. (Yes indeed) Egypt? Split or along the Egypt-Israel boundary? What
>about Gaza then?
>
>6. (Yes indeed too) Panama?
>
>7 and etc. The Azores, the Canaries, Jan Mayen, the Diomedes, all
>kinds of Pacific islands, ...., ...., etc.
>
>A lot of hypothetical and maybe not very interesting questions, but
>if I was an inhabitant of a potential intercontinental border area,
>especially if it was a dry one, I'd put a border mark there and let
>the tourists pour in...
indeed
we should all get a piece of your action
so it might also be a good idea to have as many bicontinental countries as
possible in which we could do this without the impediments that
international boundaries so predictably create
as well as without the disbelief that islands would likely engender
at least not until we really get our franchising going
after that anything goes
thus to enlarge at last upon message 1065
we could now credibly begin again with
azerbaijan
egypt
france but how would we do it
georgia
kazakhstan
panama
russia
& if we can pull inside straits
spain
turkey
for they all could qualify hands down if we wanted them to
& with palestine perennially coming soon
if we can have things both ways
which of course we can
even so
it is hard to justify armenia or ukraine
tho they could one day become our first advanced projects in creative
intercontinental gerrymeandering
m
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> i like to think the 2 great canals form the 2 great divides of the
>4 great
>> continents
>> not that europe & australia & antarctica are not great mind you
>> but i have also seen the colombia panama & the egypt israel
>boundaries
>> represented as the true lines also
>>
>> still the canals are so nice & neat
>> & they do represent physical discontinuities
>> which seems to be the whole point
>>
>> & no harm in this either
>> since all 3 of the great intercontinental divides are thus actually
>human
>> artworks
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>> >
>> >The Asia-Europe boundary markers come as a huge surprise to me.
>> >
>> >I have always thought that the Ural mountain boundary was just a
>broad
>> >undefined aproximate line, and now there are markers!
>> >
>> >Where is the Asia-Africa boundary line then? and N - S America?
>> >
>> >Jesper
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "michael donner" <m@...>
>> >To: <BoundaryPoint@y...>
>> >Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:30 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Contient marker
>> >
>> >
>> >gorgeous stuff peter
>> >
>> >this is our finest happy hour
>> >
>> >wonderful to see how a presumably all natural boundary still had
>to be
>> >diligently searched out & agreed upon
>> >& how an initially vague consensus gradually grew into official
>reality
>> >
>> > yet with seemingly nothing of consequence ever really dependent
>on it
>> >
>> >
>> >i would suggest that this round score of obelisks redeem all
>obeliskoids
>> >everywhere & naturally comprise a premium search category
>> >
>> >
>> >also the fact that parts of the intercontinental boundary dont
>coincide
>> >with any administrative boundaries only emphasizes its rarefaction
>& purity
>> >
>> >so it is truly a monumental line
>> >& especially so wherever it is not a boundary
>> >
>> >m
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Another fine Europe-Asia boundary marker. Nice one.
>> >>
>> >>This boundary is intriguing: it is a continent boundary, but there
>> >>are sections of it that don't coincide with any administrative
>> >>boundary. This is why even the Russians don't always know for sure
>> >>where that boundary is.
>> >>
>> >>I found two Russian articles on the internet, which I have
>translated
>> >>for you. Do visit the second article yourself, though: it has nice
>> >>illustrations.
>> >>
>> >>The first one:
>> >>
>> >>The Sibirka - a boundary stream
>> >>
>> >>Yuriy Dunayev
>> >>
>> >>Ten kilometres west of Nizhneye Selo, on the road to
>Staroutkinsk, we
>> >>cross a bridge over the little river that bears the name Sibirka.
>It
>> >>starts on the eastern slope of the Kirgishan heights and after 16
>> >>kilometres pours its waters into the Chusovaya from the left.
>> >>The well-known scholar of Siberian history P.A. Slovtsov
>considered
>> >>this little river the boundary of ancient Siberia. Before the Ural
>> >>was visited by Alexander Humboldt and Gustav Rose, however, in the
>> >>world of science the name Ural was given to a less significant
>> >>height, which is situated considerably more to the west - between
>the
>> >>coach stations Kirgishanskaya and Grobovskaya, and which
>constitutes
>> >>the water divide between some tributaries of the Chusovaya and the
>> >>Ufa.
>> >>Peter the Greats ambassador to China, Izbrant Ides, considered,
>for
>> >>example, the right bank of the Chusovaya, where the Stroganov
>> >>settlements ended, at the place the Mezhevaya Utka flows into the
>> >>Chusovaya, as the beginning of Asia. Academician I.G. Gmelin, who
>is
>> >>known for his many years of travel through Siberia with S. Müller,
>> >>travelled from Kungur to Yekaterinburg almost exactly along the
>> >>present Moscow-Siberia trail, and considered the Ural mountain
>range
>> >>to be one of the ridges that runs parallel to the Ural, and to
>which
>> >>belongs Klenovaya mountain, at the foot of which at that time the
>> >>boundary post was situated.
>> >>Doctor A. Erman from Berlin, who travelled across the Ural in 1828
>> >>together with the Norwegian scientist professor Heistens and
>> >>lieutenant Douai, had his attention drawn by his coachmen to
>> >>Kirgishan mountain, who said that that's where the boundary
>between
>> >>Russia and Siberia is. That's why it is not surprising that P.A.
>> >>Slovtsov too considered the little river Sibirka to be the
>boundary
>> >>river. He wasn't mistaken, either.
>> >>A testimony of the fact that the boundary used to run along this
>> >>little river is the find by the pupils of Staroutkinsk school no.
>13
>> >>of an ancient boundary stone on one of the banks of the Sibirka.
>This
>> >>stone divided, according to its inscription, Muscovy and the
>Sibirian
>> >>khanate. That is why the stream Sibirka, which flows into the
>> >>Chusovaya at a spot at 57°09' N. lat., is the most ancient
>boundary
>> >>of Russia and Siberia, and this is why it got its name, too.
>> >>By the way, A. Dmitriev in "Permskaya starina" mentions, that in
>1681
>> >>the village Sibirka was situated on the banks of the river - and
>> >>consisted of only one farm.
>> >>
>> >>Source: <<<http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007->
>>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-
>06.html>
>> >><http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
>>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
>> >><<http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
>>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
>> >><http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
>>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html
>> >>
>> >>The second one (yes, Russians seem to call every boundary marker
>an
>> >>obelisk!):
>> >>
>> >>Boundary guard in the Ural
>> >>
>> >>V. Terentyev
>> >>
>> >>More than three thousand kilometres the Ural mountains stretch
>from
>> >>north to south. This mountainous boundary in the centre of Russia
>is
>> >>firmly established and is maintained to this day. This is a big
>merit
>> >>of the great statesman and explorer of the Ural, Vasiliy Nikitich
>> >>Tatishchev. He is the first Russian that called these mountains
>Ural.
>> >>
>> >>Tatishchev was also the man that came to the conclusion the Ural
>> >>mountains were on the border of two parts of the world: Europe and
>> >>Asia. This boundary, drawn by V.N. Tatishchev two and a half
>> >>centuries ago, in spite of its conditional nature, still holds its
>> >>historical meaning, is known the world over and is fixed by many
>> >>obelisks with the inscription "Europe-Asia".
>> >>
>> >>The placing of these started in the Ural mountains already in the
>> >>last century and is still being continued. The boundary markers
>were
>> >>put up along the entire Ural range. They continue to attract
>> >>tourists, because every one of them is different and has its own
>> >>look. At present there are approximately twenty obelisks. A
>precise
>> >>figure cannot be given, because no one has ever counted them, and
>> >>news of them mostly comes from scholars of local history and
>tourists.
>> >>
>> >>In the central Ural area, in the Sverdlovsk province and around
>> >>Nizhniy Tagil, there are many interesting and originally
>constructed
>> >>border obelisks. At the occasion of the visit to our region of the
>> >>successor to the throne, the future Russian emperor Alexander II
>in
>> >>1837, the first marker "Europe-Asia" was placed in the Ural
>> >>mountains - a marble pyramid with the coat-of-arms of the czar.
>After
>> >>the October revolution it was destroyed, being a symbol of czarist
>> >>power. On this spot in 1926 a new obelisk was erected. It stands
>on
>> >>the Siberian trail some forty kilometres from Yekaterinburg, in
>the
>> >>Pervouralsk rayon.
>> >>
>> >>Another monument from the last century, built in 1868 by order
>and at
>> >>the expense of the gold industrialists of the Northern Ural, can
>> >>still be seen today. It stands at the village Kedrovka on the road
>> >>>from Kushva to Serebryanka. It is made of cast iron, and the form
>> >>resembles a bell tower. The central part is crowned by a red,
>raised
>> >>cupola, and on the corners are round columns, that are also
>crowned
>> >>by small cupolas. They used to be gilded, and on the back side the
>> >>czarist coat-of-arms shined. In the civil war the obelisk was
>> >>destroyed. But tourists of the Nizhnyaya Salda factory have
>recently
>> >>restored it.
>> >>
>> >>The address of another boundary marker is probably known to many:
>the
>> >>mountain pass crossing the Vysokie Gory ridge near the village of
>> >>Uralets on the road Nizhniy Tagil-Visim. It is a square column
>with a
>> >>height of six metres. On top of it is a model of the earth globe,
>> >>around which along a steel orbit turn a satellite and the space
>> >>ship "Vostok".
>> >>
>> >>>From Nizhniy Tagil another marker can be reached: at the 25th
>> >>kilometre of the Serebryanskiy trail you are met by a stele,
>placed
>> >>there in honour of the 50th anniversary of October.
>> >>
>> >>Interesting are the geographical location and the history of the
>> >>northernmost of all boundary markers "Europe-Asia". It stands at
>the
>> >>coast of the Yugorskiy Shar strait. Here the Ural range "dives"
>into
>> >>the waters of the Arctic Ocean. The marker was placed here in
>1973 by
>> >>the members of an expedition on the ship "Zamora", sailing from
>> >>Archangel to Dickson. This is a modest and simple obelisk. They
>got a
>> >>rusty anchor somewhere, attached a chain to it, and to a metal
>pipe a
>> >>sign was attached, with the inscription "Europe-Asia" on it.
>> >>
>> >>Further, along the whole Ural range, obelisks form a chain, going
>> >>>from north to south right to the city of Orenburg.
>> >>
>> >>Apart from the official "registered" obelisks there are in the
>Ural
>> >>mountains a whole range of do-it-yourself ones, put up by
>tourists,
>> >>school children, forest workers. For example, in the vicinity of
>> >>Tagil near the village of Yelizavetinskoye on the old winter trail
>> >>Tagil-Visim woodcutters have put up their sign: they planted a
>pine
>> >>pole of about four metres in the ground, and on a surface made
>flat
>> >>at the top they cut out the words "Europe-Asia". And in this way
>the
>> >>boundary signs are put up.
>> >>
>> >>On the pictures: this is how the boundary markers look like in the
>> >>Central Ural mountains; the northernmost obelisk on the bank of
>the
>> >>Arctic Ocean.
>> >>
>> >>Source: <<<http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
>>http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
>> >><http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm> http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
>> >><<http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
>>http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
><http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm> http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm
>> >>
>> >>Peter S.
>> >>
>> >>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., granthutchison@c... wrote:
>> >>> > <<<http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?>
>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?
>http%>
>> >>><http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%>
>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%
>>
>> >>><<http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?>
>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?
>http%>
>> >>><http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%>
>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%
>> >>> 3A//www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/reading.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Ah, the only border monument mentioned in this group that I've
>> >>> actually visited. I hung out of the space between two carriages
>on
>> >>> the Trans-Siberian railway, camera at the ready, counting the km
>> >>> markers towards 1777. Then the thing shot past at 60mph, and I
>hit
>> >>> the shutter button more by reflex than anything else. The
>picture
>> >>> turned out perfectly composed, as if I'd stood beside the line
>and
>> >>> taken all the time in the world to line up and shoot!
>> >>> The railway side (the only side I saw) has "<-Europe" and "Asia-
>>"
>> >>in
>> >>> Cyrillic, as I recall. I'll dig out the slide and project it to
>> >>make
>> >>> sure.
>> >>>
>> >>> Grant
>> >>
>> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>>><<<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700>
>>>http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700
>126166:N/A
>> >>=55>
>>
>>><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=170012>
>>>http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=170012
>6166:N/A=55
>>
>> >>>>1014/?<<http://www.debticated.com> http://www.debticated.com>
>><http://www.debticated.com> http://www.debticated.com
>> >>target="_top"> Your use of Yahoo!
>> >>Groups is subject to the <<<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>> >><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>>Yahoo! Terms
>> >>of Service.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> ><<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>><<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=170012>
>>http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=170012
>6166:N/A=55
>> >1015/?<http://www.debticated.com> http://www.debticated.com
>>target="_top"> Your use of
>Yahoo!
>> >Groups is subject to the <<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>Yahoo! Terms
>> >of Service.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700126166:N/A=55
>1015/?http://www.debticated.com target="_top"> Your use of Yahoo!
>Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Yahoo! Terms
>of Service.