Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: global clave census in progress
Date: May 09, 2001 @ 07:25
Author: Brendan Whyte ("Brendan Whyte" <brwhyte@...>)
Prev Post in Topic Next [All Posts]
Prev Post in Time Next
>From: "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>_________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: global clave census in progress
>Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:49:33 -0000
>
>In this story the figure 12 nautical miles is constantly mentioned,
>but I think it has to be mentioned too that this is not just 12 nm
>from the coast line; it is from the base line, and this base line
>could be different (cutting off of bays, river mouths, etc.) Also the
>claimed status of archipelagic country plays a role here, too. I
>don't know whether there are, anywhere in the world, enclaved bits of
>high sea within a single entity of territorial waters (i.e. belonging
>to one country), but they seem very unlikely to me. On the other
>hand, these things _can_ happen with regards to the 200 nm limit,
>with EEZ's. One example is the so-called "peanut hole" in the Sea of
>Okhotsk.
>
>And I don't know whether Ceuta and mainland Spain are linked through
>Spanish territorial waters, just because they are less than 24 nm
>apart. This is the Gibraltar strait, after all, and because it is a
>very important strait, there might be other rules applied here.
>Perhaps I'm seeing problems where there aren't any. Anyway, free
>passing of ships should be assured somehow (which is the case in
>terr. waters anyway, as I recall), but perhaps some special status is
>given to these important straits. There are definitely such
>regulations for the all-Turkish Bosporus and Dardanelles. Does anyone
>know anything more on this subject?
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> > since we now have good reason to expect accurate bengal clave
>counts later
> > this year from brendan
> >
> > & since we are not aware of any other outstanding de jure clave
>count
> > problems anywhere else in the dry world
> >
> > & since we can postpone consideration of de facto claves &
>disputed
> > territories generally
> > seeing as these are ontologically distinct types or entities
> >
> > & since we can separate our counts of the landlubbing from the high
>seas claves
> > just to keep everyone assuaged & engaged
> > even if the two types are not ontologically distinct
> >
> > & since we can also probably sort out the entire maritime world for
> > ourselves now
> > by simply assuming the global standard of 12nm of territoral seas
>everywhere
> > even if such a regime is not yet strictly in force absolutely
>everywhere
> >
> > & since we can also ignore or at least postpone consideration of
>the so
> > called human heritage area &or everyones land
> > by temporarily assuming that all whole countries embedded in the
>high seas
> > & all metro areas & claves of countries embedded in the high seas
>are
> > actually embedded in some as yet unspecified ontological entity
> > a somewhat awkward decision taken nevertheless in the interest of
>moving
> > forward
> >
> > & since we can consider the paucity of preliminary comment to be
>good news
> > both as an index of consensus & a harbinger of ease & simplicity
> > while still inviting & expecting additional input from all
> > & at any phase of the work in progress whatsoever
> >
> > it is possible as well as pleasing to proceed now
> > in anticipation of the timely arrivals of all the missing data &
>necessary
> > corrections
> >
> >
> >
> > so first of all i would like to adopt the full list of the 192 best
> > available consensus countries as provided by grant in message 2270
> > & to define these as the full set of sovereign entities
> > while allowing for any changes that may occur
> > whether due to world events or to our own review
> >
> >
> > lets just say for the time being that either grant atop the list
>or the
> > empty space at the end of the list stands for the mentioned
>unspecified
> > entity
> > a possible 193rd &or first among coequal members of the
>mereotopological
> > set embodying full global surface coverage
> >
> > this happens to coincide with a multinationally recognized
>federative territory
> > if not yet an actual federative entity like the united nations which
> > engendered it
> > & it is clearly ontologically distinct from all the 192 other
>members of
> > the set
> > & which it may actually come to subsume in their ongoing
>confederation
> > just like the federal districts &or federal territories of federal
>countries
> >
> > so the 192 either become federal in relation to it
> > or they continue as parts of the same whole yet without any
>relation to its
> > overwhelmingly greatest part
> >
> > but such loose ends as these reflect matters of ontology rather than
> > mereotopology
> > & for now they can be arranged to suit any tastes or beliefs
> >
> >
> >
> > the first matter of actual clave typology i think will be to
>recognize the
> > varieties of ways in which any of these 192 or 193 sovereign
>entities
> > either manifests itself as sovereign territory anywhere on the
>planetary
> > surface
> > or else has its sovereign territory interrupted by anothers
> >
> > in other words to simply identify & count all the territorial
>patches of &
> > all the territorial holes within all these various modalities of
>sovereign
> > territoriality
> >
> >
> > as for drawing ontological distinctions among the claves themselves
> > rather than purely mereotopological ones
> > i think that concern is postponable if not a dead issue
> > since all sets of territorial & administrative subdivisions comprise
> > entities that are distinct & distinguishable from the members of
>all other
> > ontological sets
> >
> > even the likeliest of their common characteristics
> > specifically their hierarchical subdivisional rank
> > is often a very flakey & unsatisfactory index of commonality
> >
> >
> > it should not be necessary to detain ourselves over how these
>patches of
> > territory are constituted or organized by &or within their
>subsuming entity
> > but only that they are somehow subsumed by it
> >
> >
> >
> > so of de jure exclaves
> > including all patches generally
> > there appear to be the following 8 or 9 most basic types
> >
> > 0 metropolitan patches even if not normally considered exclaves
> > such as spain with ceuta since they evidently form a single
>12nm patch
> > or such as the entire maltese archipelago similarly 1 patch
> > or even such as san marino not more nor less than a single
>patch
> > thus including possible subtypologies 0a & 0c & 0l
> > to distinguish such archipelagic & coastal &
>landlocked subtypes
> > but with all assigned a 0 status for equally easy dismissal up
>front
> > & trotted out here only tentatively & apologetically
> > since few people would consider metropatch & exclave as
>ontologically
> > the same
> >
> > but anyway to continue with or to begin the actual typology
> >
> > 1 fully embedded enclave exclaves such as llivia
> > 2 doubly embedded such as found only in baarle & bengal
> > 3 triply embedded unique to bengal
> > 4 boundary crossed peneexclave such as jungholz or the baarle pair
> > 5 fully surrounded by land patches such as andorra or nakhichevan
> > 6 partly abutted by high seas such as melilla or cabinda or
>redonda
> > with some typologically negligible distinctions possible
> > 7 unabutted except by high seas such as alboran or other islands
>with
> > 12nm seas
> > 8 condominial semiclave such as ile de la conference possibly
> >
> >
> >
> > & of de jure enclaves
> > there appear to be the following 9 or 10 most basic types
> >
> > 0 an absence of holes or the presence of an integrity
> > again dispensable for anyone who wishes to ignore it
> >
> > & to continue or begin the real typology of these
> >
> > 1 embedded country such as san marino
> > 2 embedded exclave such as llivia
> > including exclaves embedded also in territorial waters
> > such as the coastal cypriot enclave in uk sov base
> > & possibly campione &or malawi
> > 3 doubly embedded exclave baarle & bengal
> > 4 triply embedded unique bengal
> > 5 boundary crossed peneenclave such as jungholz or the baarle pair
> > 6 whole country fully embedded in high seas
> > such as malta
> > 7 metropatch fully embedded in high seas
> > such as antigua & barbuda
> > 8 exclave island or group fully embedded in high seas
> > such as alboran
> > 9 embedded condominial semiclave such as ile de la conference
>possibly
> >
> >
> > note
> > in case anyone was worried that the recognition of island claves
>dilutes
> > the meaning of claves beyond recognition
> > it is probably worth emphasizing that the great majority of islands
>&
> > groups will not form separate patches but will simply combine &
>blend in
> > with continental coastal areas &or other islands within 24nm of them
> >
> > it is only the most isolated of islands & groups
> > representing a minuscule fraction of all islands
> > that will fall outside the 24nm margin & produce separate patches
>of territory
> >
> >
> >
> > of course even assuming the above typology is technically
>adequate it
> > still fails to consider de facto & disputed cases
> > so until we can somehow at some point account for these also
> > as for example by including them indiscriminately in terra nullius
> > or by carefully elaborating adequate typologies for them all too
> > we will necessarily be in denial of such patches as really do exist
>in
> > places like the spratly islands & turkish cyprus & all the united
>nations
> > peacekeeping & other administrative areas worldwide
> >
> > but all such considerations seem eminently deferrable for now at
>least
> >
> >
> >
> > in any case
> > just to test the analysis & start the survey
> > & without necessarily vouching for any of the data
> > here is a nominally random sample but a fair swipe
> >
> > 1
> > afghanistan is landlocked & unbroken
> > hence all in one patch & with no holes
> > hence it is typologically only 0exclave 0enclave
> > or 0x 0n
> >
> > 2
> > albania is coastal & unbroken
> > with no remote islands
> > hence all in one patch & with no holes
> > 0x 0n
> >
> > 3
> > algeria is coastal & unbroken
> > with no remote islands
> > 0x 0n
> >
> > 4
> > andorra is landlocked & unbroken
> > 0x 0n
> >
> > 5
> > angola is coastal with a coastal exclave & no enclaves
> > & no remote islands
> > 0x 6x 0n
> >
> > 6
> > antigua & barbuda is archipelagic & comprises 2 patches
> > a metropatch enclosing both of these islands
> > & a separate redonda island exclave
> > 0x 6x 7x 0n 7n
> >
> > 7
> > argentina is coastal & unbroken
> > with no remote islands or other patches
> > assuming claims to the falklands & antarctica are irrelevant
> > hence all in 1 patch & with no holes
> > 0x 0n
> >
> > 8
> > armenia is landlocked & has artsvashen exclave enclaved in
>azerbaijan
> > excluding de facto nagorno karabakh from de jure consideration
> > & is host to 2 or 3 azeri exclaves of uncertain status
> > depending on whether you believe the cia or rolf
> > but preferring to believe rolf
> > hence simply 2 patches of which the metro one has 3 holes
> > 0x 1x 2n3
> >
> > 9
> > australia is technically archipelagic & appears to comprise 29
>patches
> > assuming antarctic claims are irrelevant
> > counting as follows
> > 1 metropatch incl tasmania
> > 1 king island
> > 1 ashmore & cartier assuming drying reefs intervene
> > 1 christmas i
> > 1 cocos is
> > 1 norfolk i etc
> > 1 heard & mcdonald is
> > 1 rowley shoals
> > 14 coral sea islands & groups
> > 7 boigu & saibai & 5 other island group claves within papuan waters
> > hence 0x1 1x7 7x21 0n 8n21
> >
> > 10
> > austria is landlocked & unbroken but for jungholz
> > 0x 4x 0n
> >
> > 11
> > azerbaijan is coastal & has nakhichevan unembedded exclave
> > & 3 other exclaves embedded in armenia
> > 0x1 1x3 5x1 2n
> >
> >
> > 12
> > bahamas is archipelagic & has 10 patches of which 2 abut cuba
> > 0x1 6x2 7x8 0n 7n1 8n7
> >
> > 13
> > bahrain is technically archipelagic & appears unbroken
> > following the recent icj decision
> > 0x 0n
> >
> > 14
> > bangladesh is coastal with 51 first order & 21 second order exclaves
> > & has 111 first order holes with 3 second order & 1 third order hole
> > with a possible boundary cross
> > all per a recent surmise & subject to change as mentioned
> > 0x 1x51 2x21 4x1 2n111 3n3 4n1
> >
> > 15
> > barbados is an island & unbroken
> > 0x 7x 0n 6n
> >
> > 16
> > belarus is landlocked was recently said to have a russian exclave
>embedded
> > in it
> > 0x 2n
> >
> > 17
> > belgium is coastal & has 22 exclaves enclaved in holland
> > including 1 or 2 with a boundary cross
> > & has embedded within it 1 primary & 7 secondary exclaves of holland
> > & 5 primary exclaves of germany
> > 0x1 1x22 4x1 2n6 3n7
> >
> >
> >
> > as good a place as any to pause
> > & take a peek at the growing tabulations
> > consider possible improvements etc
> >
> >
> > no co 0x 1x 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 7x 8x 0n 1n 2n 3n 4n 5n 6n 7n 8n 9n
> >
> > 01 af 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 02 al 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 03 dz 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 04 ad 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 05 ao 01 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 06 ag 01 00 00 00 00 00 01 01 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 01 00 00
> > 07 ar 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 08 am 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 003 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 09 au 01 07 00 00 00 00 00 21 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 21 00
> > 10 at 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 11 az 01 03 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 001 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 12 bs 01 00 00 00 00 00 02 08 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 00 01 07 00
> > 13 bh 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 14 bd 01 51 21 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 111 03 01 00 00 00 00 00
> > 15 bb 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 01 00 000 00 00 00 01 00 00 00
> > 16 by 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 001 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
> > 17 be 01 22 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 006 07 00 00 00 00 00 00
> >
> > totals
> > so far 17 84 21 01 02 01 04 31 00 11 00 122 10 01 00 01 02 28 00
> >
> >
> > anyway just a scouting party
> > but what does anyone think
> > & where to from here
> >
> > m
>