Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] glenelg river etc
Date: May 04, 2001 @ 15:17
Author: David Mark (David Mark <dmark@...>)
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On Fri, 4 May 2001, michael donner wrote:
> so from what you indicate brendan
> it appears the glenelg actually does run in both directions
>
> how many rivers are there that can back up such a preposterous claim
> i mean excluding tidal bores of course
>
> probably not very many
>
> m
>
>
> >
> >Yes, what i meant was it was easier for the Fly to be on the border, and so
> >the whole of the river was then accessible for British subjects to enter and
> >follow it up stream to central British Papua, than to have a large bend
> >entirely in the dutch part, when navigation on the river was of no real use
> >to the Dutch as the mouth and the upper reaches were in British terrotiry.
> >
> >There is a similar shaped river on the Vic/SA boundary in Australia, the
> >Glenelg, whose mourtth is at Nelson in Vic and which bends clockwise through
> >into SA then back into Vic. But the state boundary follows the meridian, so
> >the western part of the bend is in SA, meaning rules on the river for
> >houseboats and fishing boats, the main traffic, change. The land along the
> >inside of the bend is south Australian too, whereas the land east of the
> >meridian is Victorian and a naitonal park. The SA land is a state firest (so
> >can be logged) but that would require access through the naitonal park,
> >which would be difficult. So it remains unlogged, but not protected as a
> >national park yet.
> >Two access points to the river for boats are in SA.
> >
> >
> >>From: "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>
> >>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Fly river
> >>Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 06:45:48 -0000
> >>
> >>Thanks a lot, Brendan! Not only have you answered the question why
> >>the Fly became a boundary (headhunters have always been a problem in
> >>this area, and fugitives from Upper Digoel had more to fear from them
> >>than from the Dutch colonial police), but the juggling of the
> >>straight boundaries themselves is much more than you expect there is
> >>to an average straight line.
> >>
> >>You say that it was more convenient that the Fly be under UK
> >>administration. But the treaty specifies the thalweg, and art. V of
> >>the treaty makes it free for both Dutch and British subjects to
> >>travel the Fly by boat. So did you mean that, or did the regime on
> >>the border-Fly change since the treaty?
> >>
> >>Indeed, changes in the course of the Fly could produce a problem. And
> >>changes are very possible, since the debit of the river is huge. And
> >>you don't want any flies in your ice cream...
> >>
> >>Peter S.
> >>
> >>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Brendan Whyte" <brwhyte@h...> wrote:
> >> > Sorry, "Frontiers of Asian and southeast Asia." which covers
> >>Afghanistan
> >> > through to Indonesia-Australian and PNg-Austrlaian boundaries.
> >> > "Map of Mainland Asia by Treaty" was the more formal predecessor to
> >>this
> >> > title, contianing extracts of relevant treaties, and only covers
> >>Afghanistan
> >> > through North Korea and Malaysia.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > precis of
> >> > Prescott, Collier and Prescott,
> >> > Melb Uni Press, 1977
> >> > "Frontiers of Asia and SE Asia"
> >> > section 41, p84 with map p85:
> >> >
> >> > A territory from 141d on south coast to Cape Saprop Maneh [Tanjung
> >>Duar]
> >> > 140d47'East unilaterally declared as border by Dutch in 1848 in a
> >>sectret
> >> > declaration to UK, which was made public in 1865. In 1875 boundary
> >>described
> >> > as straight line from Tajung Duar on North coast to intersection of
> >>141deg
> >> > with south coast (very similar to 1848).
> >> > 1884 UK and Germany divided PNG and drew a serries of straight
> >>lines to
> >> > intersection of 141E and 5S, marking the tript.
> >> > 1893 raids of headhunters forced UK and Neth to precisely locate
> >>border.
> >> > Bensbach river mouth on south coast chosen as starting point,
> >>determined to
> >> > be 141d 01'47.9".
> >> > UK thus conceded a strip 3km wide to Dutch,from south coast to the
> >>DeNeUk
> >> > tripoint. To offset this, UK asked for the Fly river bend, with 2
> >>reasons:
> >> > bend occupied by headhunters with whom a river border was easier to
> >>deal,
> >> > and goldseekers would use the Fly for access to interior, so more
> >>convenient
> >> > if it was entirely within UK administration. Dutch agreed in 1895.
> >> > Dutch then looked to Germany to settle their border, but Germany in
> >>no
> >> > hurry, its surveyors all in Africa. Then WW1. Australia became
> >>successor to
> >> > Germany in New Guinea, as it had succeeded the UK in 1905 in Papua.
> >> > Australian survey in 1928 placed a marker on northern coast near
> >>Wutong,
> >> > 141d 0'13.5", recording that Dutch border was 400m west. A joint
> >>survey in
> >> > 1933 found the Dutch and Australians differed by 398m over where
> >>they
> >> > calculated 141d to be. They decided to split the difference , but
> >>this point
> >> > was unsuitable for a marker, so it was placed 168m from the Dutch
> >> > determination and 230m from the Australian, rather than 199m from
> >>each, in
> >> > the middle of the 398m gap.
> >> > Proposals to mark intersection with Fly river delayed by WW2.
> >> > 1960, Australia and Dutch agreed great circle through the marker on
> >>the
> >> > north coast to the northern intersection of 141d and Fly river to
> >>be
> >> > boundary. On the south side, the meridian passing through mouth of
> >>Bensbach
> >> > river until the southern intersection with Fly river. This
> >>southern
> >> > meridian determined to be 141d01'07" in 1958. In 1962 monuments
> >>erected on
> >> > Fly at each location. Therefore diagonal line in north and due N-S
> >>line in
> >> > south.
> >> > Work repeated when Indonesia colonised West Irian. Agreed to use
> >>141d in
> >> > the north and meridian through Bensbach in the south. So two N-S
> >>lines,
> >> > slightly offset.
> >> > Work began 1966, markers erected in two years.
> >> > 1973 agreement lists 14 markers which were erected. 10 marked 141d
> >>to the
> >> > north of the Fly, and 4 marked the Bensbach meridian, newly
> >>determined to be
> >> > 141d01'10".
> >> > Nowadays, the locations of major villages close to the border have
> >>been
> >> > determined and signs placed on major tracks crossing to border.
> >> > The 1973 agreement does not make preovision for major shifts in Fly
> >>river
> >> > course, which may be a problem in future.
> >> >
> >> > See also
> >> > Cook, Macartney and stott, 1968, "Where is the border?", Australian
> >>External
> >> > Territories, 8(5):7-18.
> >> > van der Veur, (1966), "Search for New Guinea's boundaries",
> >>Canberra.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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