Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] glenelg river etc
Date: May 04, 2001 @ 16:42
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
Prev Post in Topic Next [All Posts]
Prev Post in Time Next
>
>>From a careful re-reading of Brendan's posting I don't see why you think
>the river flows in both directions. Brendan DESCRIBED it starting at the
>mouth and going upstream, but probably only his description was going
>upstream, not the water?
>
>On the other hand, there are many reversing rivers. Even a reversing falls
>in Saint John, New Brunswick. The Pitt River in sw British Columbia flows
>from the Fraser River north into Pitt Lake on the rising tides. There are
>also channels such as some bayous (bayoux?) that reverse depending on the
>flow in other channels.
>
>David
>
>On Fri, 4 May 2001, michael donner wrote:
>
>> so from what you indicate brendan
>> it appears the glenelg actually does run in both directions
>>
>> how many rivers are there that can back up such a preposterous claim
>> i mean excluding tidal bores of course
>>
>> probably not very many
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Yes, what i meant was it was easier for the Fly to be on the border, and so
>> >the whole of the river was then accessible for British subjects to
>>enter and
>> >follow it up stream to central British Papua, than to have a large bend
>> >entirely in the dutch part, when navigation on the river was of no real use
>> >to the Dutch as the mouth and the upper reaches were in British terrotiry.
>> >
>> >There is a similar shaped river on the Vic/SA boundary in Australia, the
>> >Glenelg, whose mourtth is at Nelson in Vic and which bends clockwise
>>through
>> >into SA then back into Vic. But the state boundary follows the meridian, so
>> >the western part of the bend is in SA, meaning rules on the river for
>> >houseboats and fishing boats, the main traffic, change. The land along the
>> >inside of the bend is south Australian too, whereas the land east of the
>> >meridian is Victorian and a naitonal park. The SA land is a state
>>firest (so
>> >can be logged) but that would require access through the naitonal park,
>> >which would be difficult. So it remains unlogged, but not protected as a
>> >national park yet.
>> >Two access points to the river for boats are in SA.
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>
>> >>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> >>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> >>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Fly river
>> >>Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 06:45:48 -0000
>> >>
>> >>Thanks a lot, Brendan! Not only have you answered the question why
>> >>the Fly became a boundary (headhunters have always been a problem in
>> >>this area, and fugitives from Upper Digoel had more to fear from them
>> >>than from the Dutch colonial police), but the juggling of the
>> >>straight boundaries themselves is much more than you expect there is
>> >>to an average straight line.
>> >>
>> >>You say that it was more convenient that the Fly be under UK
>> >>administration. But the treaty specifies the thalweg, and art. V of
>> >>the treaty makes it free for both Dutch and British subjects to
>> >>travel the Fly by boat. So did you mean that, or did the regime on
>> >>the border-Fly change since the treaty?
>> >>
>> >>Indeed, changes in the course of the Fly could produce a problem. And
>> >>changes are very possible, since the debit of the river is huge. And
>> >>you don't want any flies in your ice cream...
>> >>
>> >>Peter S.
>> >>
>> >>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Brendan Whyte" <brwhyte@h...> wrote:
>> >> > Sorry, "Frontiers of Asian and southeast Asia." which covers
>> >>Afghanistan
>> >> > through to Indonesia-Australian and PNg-Austrlaian boundaries.
>> >> > "Map of Mainland Asia by Treaty" was the more formal predecessor to
>> >>this
>> >> > title, contianing extracts of relevant treaties, and only covers
>> >>Afghanistan
>> >> > through North Korea and Malaysia.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > precis of
>> >> > Prescott, Collier and Prescott,
>> >> > Melb Uni Press, 1977
>> >> > "Frontiers of Asia and SE Asia"
>> >> > section 41, p84 with map p85:
>> >> >
>> >> > A territory from 141d on south coast to Cape Saprop Maneh [Tanjung
>> >>Duar]
>> >> > 140d47'East unilaterally declared as border by Dutch in 1848 in a
>> >>sectret
>> >> > declaration to UK, which was made public in 1865. In 1875 boundary
>> >>described
>> >> > as straight line from Tajung Duar on North coast to intersection of
>> >>141deg
>> >> > with south coast (very similar to 1848).
>> >> > 1884 UK and Germany divided PNG and drew a serries of straight
>> >>lines to
>> >> > intersection of 141E and 5S, marking the tript.
>> >> > 1893 raids of headhunters forced UK and Neth to precisely locate
>> >>border.
>> >> > Bensbach river mouth on south coast chosen as starting point,
>> >>determined to
>> >> > be 141d 01'47.9".
>> >> > UK thus conceded a strip 3km wide to Dutch,from south coast to the
>> >>DeNeUk
>> >> > tripoint. To offset this, UK asked for the Fly river bend, with 2
>> >>reasons:
>> >> > bend occupied by headhunters with whom a river border was easier to
>> >>deal,
>> >> > and goldseekers would use the Fly for access to interior, so more
>> >>convenient
>> >> > if it was entirely within UK administration. Dutch agreed in 1895.
>> >> > Dutch then looked to Germany to settle their border, but Germany in
>> >>no
>> >> > hurry, its surveyors all in Africa. Then WW1. Australia became
>> >>successor to
>> >> > Germany in New Guinea, as it had succeeded the UK in 1905 in Papua.
>> >> > Australian survey in 1928 placed a marker on northern coast near
>> >>Wutong,
>> >> > 141d 0'13.5", recording that Dutch border was 400m west. A joint
>> >>survey in
>> >> > 1933 found the Dutch and Australians differed by 398m over where
>> >>they
>> >> > calculated 141d to be. They decided to split the difference , but
>> >>this point
>> >> > was unsuitable for a marker, so it was placed 168m from the Dutch
>> >> > determination and 230m from the Australian, rather than 199m from
>> >>each, in
>> >> > the middle of the 398m gap.
>> >> > Proposals to mark intersection with Fly river delayed by WW2.
>> >> > 1960, Australia and Dutch agreed great circle through the marker on
>> >>the
>> >> > north coast to the northern intersection of 141d and Fly river to
>> >>be
>> >> > boundary. On the south side, the meridian passing through mouth of
>> >>Bensbach
>> >> > river until the southern intersection with Fly river. This
>> >>southern
>> >> > meridian determined to be 141d01'07" in 1958. In 1962 monuments
>> >>erected on
>> >> > Fly at each location. Therefore diagonal line in north and due N-S
>> >>line in
>> >> > south.
>> >> > Work repeated when Indonesia colonised West Irian. Agreed to use
>> >>141d in
>> >> > the north and meridian through Bensbach in the south. So two N-S
>> >>lines,
>> >> > slightly offset.
>> >> > Work began 1966, markers erected in two years.
>> >> > 1973 agreement lists 14 markers which were erected. 10 marked 141d
>> >>to the
>> >> > north of the Fly, and 4 marked the Bensbach meridian, newly
>> >>determined to be
>> >> > 141d01'10".
>> >> > Nowadays, the locations of major villages close to the border have
>> >>been
>> >> > determined and signs placed on major tracks crossing to border.
>> >> > The 1973 agreement does not make preovision for major shifts in Fly
>> >>river
>> >> > course, which may be a problem in future.
>> >> >
>> >> > See also
>> >> > Cook, Macartney and stott, 1968, "Where is the border?", Australian
>> >>External
>> >> > Territories, 8(5):7-18.
>> >> > van der Veur, (1966), "Search for New Guinea's boundaries",
>> >>Canberra.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>______________________________________________________________________
>> >>___
>> >> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>> >><<http://www.hotmail.com> http://www.hotmail.com>
>><http://www.hotmail.com> http://www.hotmail.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >_________________________________________________________________________
>> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>> ><<http://www.hotmail.com> http://www.hotmail.com>
>><http://www.hotmail.com> http://www.hotmail.com
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>>><"<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=189224.1422389.3005026.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700126166:N/A
>>=6>
>>http://rd.yahoo.com/M=189224.1422389.3005026.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700126166:N/A=6 >
>>>
>>>54121/*<http://ads.track-star.com/adspace.ts?ts=1;2;217;107_20_105_218>
>>http://ads.track-star.com/adspace.ts?ts=1;2;217;107_20_105_218"
>> >target="_top">Lse 20 lbs by July 9th! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
>> >subject to the <<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Yahoo! Terms of
>> >Service.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=190462.1393721.2979173.2/D=egroupmail/S=1700126166:N/A=55
>1014/?http://www.debticated.com target="_top"> Your use of Yahoo!
>Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Yahoo! Terms
>of Service.