great
thank you
& i would wish everyone to be comfortable & at home with this too
like for me the debate isnt secondary but third or fourth to the
striving for reality
& for consensus
& for the clarity to distinguish these
this morning i have been toying with the idea of
territorial continuations
very subversive
because if we say the usa has 52 continuations
we are left guessing what exactly is being continued
not the metro territory since it is one of the 52
& then of course we realize the only possible answer
it is the sovereignty of the usa that is being continued & contained by all
these geographical manifestations of itself
& remember
if you dont have some land to pin your sovereignty on
you dont get much respect in this game
for it is all about the sovereignty & the land
in this way we can begin to appreciate for example that the basques or the
kurds or you or i for example in reality have no lack of sovereignty
& that we are like the 192 sovereign countries & everyone else fully
engaged in the process of continuing & growing this sovereignty
& thus the territories & the boundaries begin to relax & subside a little
into the much larger picture of which they are but a single aspect or
dimension
mm
>
>I think we would need to have some sory of poll or vote on the issues of
>terminology, since I seem to disagree with Brendan on a lot of this and I
>feel that my opinion is equal to his, not greater but not less.
>
>Maybe a first step would be a complete enumeration of the KINDS of
>international 'claves and fragments based on ontological and mereo-
>topological grounds. Then we could 'debate' how to group them and what to
>call them.
>
>David
>
>On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, michael donner wrote:
>
>> brendan
>> your recent mention of the sealess coastal enclave on cyprus
>> & your reference to offshore dependencies in the followup message
>> raise several old & new questions involving claves & territorial seas
>> which i hope you &or others will also be able to answer
>> if not absolutely now then at least somehow sometime
>> possibly in the following order of importance or interest
>>
>> first
>> how many world class claves are there really
>> & how might they be most sensibly grouped into the subcategories of
>> enclaves & exclaves & fragments
>> &or any other subcategories
>> & can they all be listed by their individual natural names yet
>> or by any other generally recognizable names
>>
>> in other words are we in reach of a first global clave census & roster
>> as we are for the countries of the world themselves
>> & as we have already tried for the tricountry points etc
>>
>>
>> second
>> would the above questions be answered any differently if adjacent
>> territorial seas were considered integral parts of those coastal clave
>> territories that have them
>> just as much as they are integral to the so called metropolitan areas or
>> nuclear territories of coastal & archipelagic countries generally
>>
>>
>> third
>> do you really mean by the term fragments to invoke the idea of fracturing &
>> breaking
>> & to imply that these entities have actually been broken or have broken
>> or are broken or are being broken in some sense
>>
>> or is all that just my own subjective gloss upon this word
>>
>> for wouldnt some term that is less suggestive of disintegration & disruption
>> while still conveying the idea of partition & separation
>> such as outer lands or outlying areas or particles for example
>> be more faithful to clave reality & more generally helpful & ameliorative
>>
>> or for referring equally to both claves & their metro areas
>> some term like compartments or co parts or installments
>> or even tho seemingly contrarian contiguities continuities
>>continua etc
>>
>> but also
>> since i am still unsure what new distinctions you mean to make by
>> introducing the term fragments
>> & would like to understand this better
>> dont the 3 traditional terms enclave & exclave & metropolitan area alone
>> suffice to cover all eventualities
>> if used correctly
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>> >
>> >That would seem right.
>> >Not counting Nagorno or Palestinian west bank, Tibet, or SMOM:
>> >
>> >triple-landlocked: 0 countries, 1 enclave, one counter-counter-enclave.
>> >= 2 fragments
>> >
>> >double-landlocked
>> >2 doubly landlocked countries, Liechtenstein and Uzkebistan. And other
>> >doubly landlocked enclaves include Campione, Busingen, the 7 dutch
>> >counter-enclaves at Baarle, the russian enclave in Belarus, the 5 enclaves
>> >of armenia and Azerbaijan (Nagorno doesn't count as it is not recognised as
>> >Armenian or independent), the counter enclave at Madha in the UAE,the 6
>> >other Ferghana enclaves and the 21 Pakistani and 3 Indian counter enclaves.
>> >= 2 countries, 14 enclaves & 32 counter-enclaves
>> >= 2 countries and 46 fragments.
>> >
>> >single-landlocked
>> >39 countries, 23 enclaves at Baarle, Llivia, 5 at Monschau, 3 at Cyprus [1
>> >is already on the sea, although it has no territorial sea of its own]
>> >Nakihichevan, Madha.
>> >= 39 countries, 33 enclaves , 1 other fragment (Nakhichevan).
>> >= 39 countries, 34 fragments
>> >
>> >Unlandlocked:
>> >approx 200 countries.
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: granthutchison@...
>> >>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> >>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> >>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Triple land-locking
>> >>Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:11:43 -0000
>> >>
>> >>Here's a random thought that has just come to me. I think there are
>> >>probably only two triple land-locked territories in the world - areas
>> >>from which you can't reach the sea without crossing three national
>> >>boundaries. One is the (pretty obvious) third-order Indian enclave in
>> >>Bangladesh, and the other is the Tajik enclave in Uzbekistan.
>> >>Does anyone else find that at all interesting?
>> >>
>> >>Grant
>> >>
>> >
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