Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Bidasoa-Txingudi
Date: Mar 07, 2001 @ 22:20
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
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>
>For the link: try this one:
>
><http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/DDW?W%>
>http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/DDW?W%
>3DTOUSTI+PH+WORDS+%27Figuier%27+AND+TOUSDATE+%3C+%2701.01.1960%
>27+AND+SER+%3D+%27Espagne%27+ORDER+BY+SER/Ascend%26M%3D1%26K%
>3D19590092%26R%3DY%26U%3D1
>
>
>I know it's a long one and they're known for not working very often.
>If it doesn't work, fill in at the form the following:
>
>Tous les mots: Figuier
>
>Avant la date: 01.01.1960
>
>Pays ou organisation internationale: Espagne
>
>Click on:
>Rechercher
>
>You'll end up at "Convention relative à la pêche dans la Bidassoa et
>la baie du Figuier". Click on the Adobe pdf logo, and there it is....
>
>The scan I will send you tomorrow.
>
>As for pictures: I have some slides of the Ile de la Conference and
>of border stone 262, but as they are slides I'm unable to scan them
>at the moment. So I will let them made into photographs first. This
>will take some time.
>
>The very border stone is not that old, I think. It is of the type you
>can see on various pictures at the site of Eef Berns. The location,
>however, is very old. It should be born in mind that the 19th century
>treaty of Bayonne was, to a large extent, only a fixture of practices
>and border lines that were much, much older.
>
>As for the sovereign Basque homeland: I have heard on a couple of
>occasions that a Basque nationalist was jokingly called the "King of
>the Ile de la Conference". Still, when on that island, a Basque
>nationalist has to deal with two adversaries, not just one. So he is
>probably worse off there.
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> peter this news & your reporting are both absolutely fantastic
>> & your hot pursuit here amply fulfills my fondest wish for our group
>> which has now truly become thanx in large measure to you a real
>time
>> global try pointing search & research tank
>>
>> indeed it looks to me like we have actually created a perpetual
>motion
>> machine for the pursuit of happiness
>>
>>
>> i should probably wait to see the map
>> but my reading & rereading of your data so far plus my excitement
>lead me
>> to hazard the premature guess that there may actually be 2 distinct
>points
>> within the bay where the condo trijoins with both the french & the
>spanish
>> territorial waters
>> an inner one near the river mouth
>> possibly but not necessarily equidistant from the pierheads
>> & an outer one where the bay meets the ocean
>> again possibly at a point of equidistance from the respective
>coasts
>> the exact positions of both tripoints being possibly referred to in
>if not
>> actually determined by the terms of the 1959 treaty
>> which incidentally i was unable to access
>>
>>
>> cant help wondering also if this condo even tho all wet might not
>be the
>> first physical manifestation of a sovereign basque homeland
>>
>>
>> with highest regards
>> m
>>
>>
>> was also gratified to see your positive identification of the 1375
>st
>> martin stone as number 262
>>
>> which reminds me to ask you also
>> if you will indulge me another question
>> seeing as this is the oldest working international boundary
>monument i am
>> aware of
>> whether you have learned of any older ones along this line
>> as i think gideon biger implies it might be exceeded in antiquity
>by a
>> century or 2
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> >> very interesting as usual peter
>> >> & it looks like you may have turned up another condominial
>tripoint
>> >or 2 here
>> >>
>> >> so i am curious to know
>> >> when you say
>> >> much of the water surface is condo like ile de la conference
>> >> does this mean only the surface & not the underlying column or
>bed
>> >> or does it mean such maritime territory generally & inclusively
>at
>> >all levels
>> >>
>> >I'd say the last one. There is no mentioning anywhere of the
>seabed.
>> >> also
>> >> are this wet one & the ile de la conference dry one the only 2
>such
>> >condos
>> >> along the frsp frontier
>> >> or do you know of others
>> >I don't, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others. This
>> >boundary is _very_ complicated.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> also
>> >> if you or anyone else can point to or illuminate any other condos
>> >anywhere
>> >> else in the world
>> >> please dont hesitate
>> >> as it would be nice to at least know about them all
>> >>
>> >> m
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> i realize any roundup of them would not just be a cut & dry list
>> >> but would have to be riddled with asterisks & footnotes
>> >> since the terms of each agreement are likely to be not only
>unique
>> >but
>> >> quite idiosyncratic
>> >> yet all the more reason to think it would make a fascinating
>> >assemblage
>> >>
>> >I made this little compilation after some reading in Jacques
>> >Descheemaeker and in the on-line archive of the French ministry of
>> >foreign affairs:
>> >
>> >First, to clarify things: Txingudi and Baie du Figuier are very
>often
>> >considered to designate the same area of water (as I have done).
>This
>> >seems to be not entirely correct. On a little hand-drawn map by
>> >Jacques Descheemaeker, the outer part of the estuary (strictly
>> >speaking already a part of the sea) is called Baie du Figuier. The
>> >river proper is called Bidassoa, but on this map there is no
>boundary
>> >between the two entities to be seen, and this is important, because
>> >the condominium situation only applies to the bay. The condominium
>> >was set up by the Declaration on the Excercition of the
>Jurisdiction
>> >of the two countries in the Baie du Figuier (March 30, 1879). On
>the
>> >map by Descheemaeker, some lines and letters can be seen, but they
>> >are not referred to by Descheemaeker in the accompanying article. I
>> >can, however, find a description in the Convention on the Fishing
>in
>> >the Bidassoa and the Baie du Figuier (July 14, 1959). Some other
>> >letters are used in the description, but the overall picture seems
>to
>> >be the same. With one exception: the boundary between the Bidassoa
>> >and the Baie du Figuier is defined as a line between the two
>> >downstream extremities of the piers bordering the mouth of the
>river.
>> >Now this probably can't be found in the 1879 declaration, because
>at
>> >that date the piers possibly didn't exist yet. They don't show on
>> >Descheemaeker's map, which he no doubt copied from the 1879
>> >declaration.
>> >
>> >On a 1:25k topo map, the part of the Bidassoa river in between the
>> >railway bridges between Hendaye and Irun and the two piers marking
>> >the mouth of the river is called Baie de Chingoudy. So this is
>> >without any doubt Txingudi. Descheemaeker sees this as being part
>of
>> >the Bidassoa river. The piers are located approximately where on
>> >Descheemaeker's map the letter G is written.
>> >
>> >Descheemaeker distinguishes:
>> >1. the Ile de la Conférence, which he calls a condominium of
>> >international law,
>> >2. the central part of the Baie du Figuier, which he calls a
>> >condominium of exploitation, and
>> >3. the Bidassoa river between Chapitelaco-arria (boundary marker
>no.
>> >1, where the boundary becomes a dry one) and the Baie du Figuier
>> >(which is a normal international river in the sense of the Vienna
>> >Congress, with a defined boundary halfway the stream at low tide
>cq.
>> >at the thalweg, but with special provisions regarding the
>> >exploitation of the river).
>> >
>> >The difference between the statuses of 1 and 2 are clearly linked
>> >with the fact that 1 is dry and 2 is wet. The preoccupation with
>the
>> >exploitation of both bay and river dates from the days that it was
>> >very common for villages at both sides of the boundary to make
>> >treaties on these issues, without any interference of the
>respective
>> >national governments. These treaties were called faceries, and
>> >according to one theory the name Ile des Faisans has nothing to do
>> >with pheasants but with the fact that the signatories of these
>> >faceries, the façans, came to this spot to sign it. This was
>usually
>> >done at a boundary marker, and the annual payment of a tribute
>> >according to the facerie between the Bearnese valley of Barétous
>and
>> >the Navarrese valley of Roncal/Erronkari, at boundary marker no.
>262
>> >a.k.a. the Saint Martin stone, is a well-known example.
>> >The treaty of Bayonne of 1856, on an international level, was
>partly
>> >superimposed on these faceries, but had to take into account the
>> >ancient rights of the local people. Many special provisions were
>made
>> >since, and if you query for example the database of the archives of
>> >the French foreign ministry on bilateral treaties with Spain, a lot
>> >of them have to do with the intra-Basque boundary. An example is
>the
>> >regulations concerning the upper part of the Aldude valley, known
>as
>> >the Kintoa (Pays Quint in French). But this I leave for another
>time
>> >to discuss.
>> >
>> >So the regulations for the Bidassoa and the Baie du Figuier can be
>> >considered as faceries of some sort, not `dry' faceries concerning
>> >the grazing and passage of cattle etc., but `wet' ones, aimed
>mainly
>> >at regulating fishing and shipping. For the Bidassoa and the Baie
>du
>> >Figuier, the fishing rights belong exclusively to the inhabitants
>of
>> >the five municipalities at the Franco-Spanish wet boundary under
>> >consideration: Hondarribia and Irun in Spain, and Hendaia/Hendaye,
>> >Biriatu/Biriatou, and Urruña/Urrugne (the little border post of
>> >Pausu/Béhobie is on its territory) in France. In other words, the
>> >regulation can be considered as a local facerie. The waters are
>> >nothing else than common pastures.
>> >
>> >On the Bidassoa, what is common is the use of its waters, while
>there
>> >is no condominium. But it goes further than that: all vessels on
>the
>> >river remain under the jurisdiction of their own country. This is
>> >regulated almost pedantically in the Bayonne treaty (art. 19), in
>> >which it says that once a vessel has moored at one of the banks, it
>> >falls under the jurisdiction of the country to which that bank
>> >belongs, but also when a vessel is that close to a bank that it is
>> >possible to enter it directly (I presume `to jump' is meant) from
>the
>> >river bank!
>> >
>> >The central part of the Baie du Figuier is common water regarding
>the
>> >economical use of it as well, but here it really stays undivided
>> >(wet) territory! I.e., it is a condominium. Two smaller parts, west
>> >and east, are attached to the territorial waters of Spain and
>France,
>> >respectively. And north of the line AD (Erdico (part of the Cabo
>> >Higuer)-Pointe du Tombeau (part of the Pointe Ste. Anne)), the
>> >territorial waters of the countries start, with a boundary that
>> >starts from the very middle of line AD.
>> >
>> >The exact delimitation of the waters following the 1959 convention
>> >can be different from the one from 1879 (with which the
>Descheemaeker
>> >map goes), and it is certainly different regarding the boundary
>> >between the river and the bay, but I will send you the little hand-
>> >drawn map as soon as I've made a scan of it. It is from Jacques
>> >Descheemaeker, "La Bidassoa et l'Ile de la Conférence", in: Eusko-
>> >Jakintza, 1948, no. 2 (pp. 649-680). The 1959 convention can be
>found
>> >on-line in the archives of the French foreign ministry, at:
>> ><<http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/sf>
>>http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/sf>
>> ><http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/sf>
>>http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/sf
>> >
>> >Peter S.
>> >
>> >
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