For the link: try this one:
http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/DDW?W%
3DTOUSTI+PH+WORDS+%27Figuier%27+AND+TOUSDATE+%3C+%2701.01.1960%
27+AND+SER+%3D+%27Espagne%27+ORDER+BY+SER/Ascend%26M%3D1%26K%
3D19590092%26R%3DY%26U%3D1
I know it's a long one and they're known for not working very often.
If it doesn't work, fill in at the form the following:
Tous les mots: Figuier
Avant la date: 01.01.1960
Pays ou organisation internationale: Espagne
Click on:
Rechercher
You'll end up at "Convention relative à la pêche dans la Bidassoa et
la baie du Figuier". Click on the Adobe pdf logo, and there it is....
The scan I will send you tomorrow.
As for pictures: I have some slides of the Ile de la Conference and
of border stone 262, but as they are slides I'm unable to scan them
at the moment. So I will let them made into photographs first. This
will take some time.
The very border stone is not that old, I think. It is of the type you
can see on various pictures at the site of Eef Berns. The location,
however, is very old. It should be born in mind that the 19th century
treaty of Bayonne was, to a large extent, only a fixture of practices
and border lines that were much, much older.
As for the sovereign Basque homeland: I have heard on a couple of
occasions that a Basque nationalist was jokingly called the "King of
the Ile de la Conference". Still, when on that island, a Basque
nationalist has to deal with two adversaries, not just one. So he is
probably worse off there.
Peter S.
--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> peter this news & your reporting are both absolutely fantastic
> & your hot pursuit here amply fulfills my fondest wish for our group
> which has now truly become thanx in large measure to you a real
time
> global try pointing search & research tank
>
> indeed it looks to me like we have actually created a perpetual
motion
> machine for the pursuit of happiness
>
>
> i should probably wait to see the map
> but my reading & rereading of your data so far plus my excitement
lead me
> to hazard the premature guess that there may actually be 2 distinct
points
> within the bay where the condo trijoins with both the french & the
spanish
> territorial waters
> an inner one near the river mouth
> possibly but not necessarily equidistant from the pierheads
> & an outer one where the bay meets the ocean
> again possibly at a point of equidistance from the respective
coasts
> the exact positions of both tripoints being possibly referred to in
if not
> actually determined by the terms of the 1959 treaty
> which incidentally i was unable to access
>
>
> cant help wondering also if this condo even tho all wet might not
be the
> first physical manifestation of a sovereign basque homeland
>
>
> with highest regards
> m
>
>
> was also gratified to see your positive identification of the 1375
st
> martin stone as number 262
>
> which reminds me to ask you also
> if you will indulge me another question
> seeing as this is the oldest working international boundary
monument i am
> aware of
> whether you have learned of any older ones along this line
> as i think gideon biger implies it might be exceeded in antiquity
by a
> century or 2
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> >> very interesting as usual peter
> >> & it looks like you may have turned up another condominial
tripoint
> >or 2 here
> >>
> >> so i am curious to know
> >> when you say
> >> much of the water surface is condo like ile de la conference
> >> does this mean only the surface & not the underlying column or
bed
> >> or does it mean such maritime territory generally & inclusively
at
> >all levels
> >>
> >I'd say the last one. There is no mentioning anywhere of the
seabed.
> >> also
> >> are this wet one & the ile de la conference dry one the only 2
such
> >condos
> >> along the frsp frontier
> >> or do you know of others
> >I don't, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others. This
> >boundary is _very_ complicated.
> >>
> >>
> >> also
> >> if you or anyone else can point to or illuminate any other condos
> >anywhere
> >> else in the world
> >> please dont hesitate
> >> as it would be nice to at least know about them all
> >>
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> i realize any roundup of them would not just be a cut & dry list
> >> but would have to be riddled with asterisks & footnotes
> >> since the terms of each agreement are likely to be not only
unique
> >but
> >> quite idiosyncratic
> >> yet all the more reason to think it would make a fascinating
> >assemblage
> >>
> >I made this little compilation after some reading in Jacques
> >Descheemaeker and in the on-line archive of the French ministry of
> >foreign affairs:
> >
> >First, to clarify things: Txingudi and Baie du Figuier are very
often
> >considered to designate the same area of water (as I have done).
This
> >seems to be not entirely correct. On a little hand-drawn map by
> >Jacques Descheemaeker, the outer part of the estuary (strictly
> >speaking already a part of the sea) is called Baie du Figuier. The
> >river proper is called Bidassoa, but on this map there is no
boundary
> >between the two entities to be seen, and this is important, because
> >the condominium situation only applies to the bay. The condominium
> >was set up by the Declaration on the Excercition of the
Jurisdiction
> >of the two countries in the Baie du Figuier (March 30, 1879). On
the
> >map by Descheemaeker, some lines and letters can be seen, but they
> >are not referred to by Descheemaeker in the accompanying article. I
> >can, however, find a description in the Convention on the Fishing
in
> >the Bidassoa and the Baie du Figuier (July 14, 1959). Some other
> >letters are used in the description, but the overall picture seems
to
> >be the same. With one exception: the boundary between the Bidassoa
> >and the Baie du Figuier is defined as a line between the two
> >downstream extremities of the piers bordering the mouth of the
river.
> >Now this probably can't be found in the 1879 declaration, because
at
> >that date the piers possibly didn't exist yet. They don't show on
> >Descheemaeker's map, which he no doubt copied from the 1879
> >declaration.
> >
> >On a 1:25k topo map, the part of the Bidassoa river in between the
> >railway bridges between Hendaye and Irun and the two piers marking
> >the mouth of the river is called Baie de Chingoudy. So this is
> >without any doubt Txingudi. Descheemaeker sees this as being part
of
> >the Bidassoa river. The piers are located approximately where on
> >Descheemaeker's map the letter G is written.
> >
> >Descheemaeker distinguishes:
> >1. the Ile de la Conférence, which he calls a condominium of
> >international law,
> >2. the central part of the Baie du Figuier, which he calls a
> >condominium of exploitation, and
> >3. the Bidassoa river between Chapitelaco-arria (boundary marker
no.
> >1, where the boundary becomes a dry one) and the Baie du Figuier
> >(which is a normal international river in the sense of the Vienna
> >Congress, with a defined boundary halfway the stream at low tide
cq.
> >at the thalweg, but with special provisions regarding the
> >exploitation of the river).
> >
> >The difference between the statuses of 1 and 2 are clearly linked
> >with the fact that 1 is dry and 2 is wet. The preoccupation with
the
> >exploitation of both bay and river dates from the days that it was
> >very common for villages at both sides of the boundary to make
> >treaties on these issues, without any interference of the
respective
> >national governments. These treaties were called faceries, and
> >according to one theory the name Ile des Faisans has nothing to do
> >with pheasants but with the fact that the signatories of these
> >faceries, the façans, came to this spot to sign it. This was
usually
> >done at a boundary marker, and the annual payment of a tribute
> >according to the facerie between the Bearnese valley of Barétous
and
> >the Navarrese valley of Roncal/Erronkari, at boundary marker no.
262
> >a.k.a. the Saint Martin stone, is a well-known example.
> >The treaty of Bayonne of 1856, on an international level, was
partly
> >superimposed on these faceries, but had to take into account the
> >ancient rights of the local people. Many special provisions were
made
> >since, and if you query for example the database of the archives of
> >the French foreign ministry on bilateral treaties with Spain, a lot
> >of them have to do with the intra-Basque boundary. An example is
the
> >regulations concerning the upper part of the Aldude valley, known
as
> >the Kintoa (Pays Quint in French). But this I leave for another
time
> >to discuss.
> >
> >So the regulations for the Bidassoa and the Baie du Figuier can be
> >considered as faceries of some sort, not `dry' faceries concerning
> >the grazing and passage of cattle etc., but `wet' ones, aimed
mainly
> >at regulating fishing and shipping. For the Bidassoa and the Baie
du
> >Figuier, the fishing rights belong exclusively to the inhabitants
of
> >the five municipalities at the Franco-Spanish wet boundary under
> >consideration: Hondarribia and Irun in Spain, and Hendaia/Hendaye,
> >Biriatu/Biriatou, and Urruña/Urrugne (the little border post of
> >Pausu/Béhobie is on its territory) in France. In other words, the
> >regulation can be considered as a local facerie. The waters are
> >nothing else than common pastures.
> >
> >On the Bidassoa, what is common is the use of its waters, while
there
> >is no condominium. But it goes further than that: all vessels on
the
> >river remain under the jurisdiction of their own country. This is
> >regulated almost pedantically in the Bayonne treaty (art. 19), in
> >which it says that once a vessel has moored at one of the banks, it
> >falls under the jurisdiction of the country to which that bank
> >belongs, but also when a vessel is that close to a bank that it is
> >possible to enter it directly (I presume `to jump' is meant) from
the
> >river bank!
> >
> >The central part of the Baie du Figuier is common water regarding
the
> >economical use of it as well, but here it really stays undivided
> >(wet) territory! I.e., it is a condominium. Two smaller parts, west
> >and east, are attached to the territorial waters of Spain and
France,
> >respectively. And north of the line AD (Erdico (part of the Cabo
> >Higuer)-Pointe du Tombeau (part of the Pointe Ste. Anne)), the
> >territorial waters of the countries start, with a boundary that
> >starts from the very middle of line AD.
> >
> >The exact delimitation of the waters following the 1959 convention
> >can be different from the one from 1879 (with which the
Descheemaeker
> >map goes), and it is certainly different regarding the boundary
> >between the river and the bay, but I will send you the little hand-
> >drawn map as soon as I've made a scan of it. It is from Jacques
> >Descheemaeker, "La Bidassoa et l'Ile de la Conférence", in: Eusko-
> >Jakintza, 1948, no. 2 (pp. 649-680). The 1959 convention can be
found
> >on-line in the archives of the French foreign ministry, at:
> ><http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/sf>
> >http://www.doc.diplomatie.fr/BASIS/pacte/webext/bilat/sf
> >
> >Peter S.
> >
> >
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