excellent arif
grateful for any time with you
& thanx for promoting onlist responses too
as i believe we are all interested in these
also glad to see you are rad enough to consider st pierre a true exclave
if it proved to be integral to france
which btw i am pretty sure it is
being 1 of 5 overseas departments
glad because your view acknowledges the equality of sea & land for
determining the true shapes of territories
& so promotes the acknowledgment of maritime tripoints too
now here is a follow up question
the status of the other 4 overseas departments & their waters
french guiana guadeloupe martinique & reunion
is not so rare
since these are not similarly surrounded by sovereign waters
but are all bounded in part by nonsovereign waters
& so i gather that by your definition these would not be exclaves
this presents a difficulty tho
clearly their open endedness disqualifies them from being enclaves
since they cannot be within anything else in that case
but shouldnt they still have as much claim as st pierre to be exclaves
since they are just as external to metropolitan france as st pierre is
this is an example of the more general difficulty of definitions i mentioned
it seems there is always an exception or contradiction like this lurking in
the shadows of one clavology or the other
it might be fun to sort out all the different possibilities tho
i have never seen a completely satisfactory typology
m
ps
just enjoyed your latest refreshment too
>
>No, I am not away, but because of Ramadan, when prayer
>time just increases a little, I had less time to
>research and provide input. Also, visitation of
>international tripoints is not the strongest suit of
>mine and as the latest messages have focused on that,
>I have not had the chance.
>This message is mainly for Mats, but I am putting it
>on the group to give my takes and new info on
>exclaves.
>By the way, Brendan, if any new info seems like a
>discussion of your quiz answers, I am sorry.
>First of all, my definition of enclaves is a piece of
>territory completely surrounded by another. I
>generally like to call separated pieces of a country
>that borders the sea or more than one country
>fragments and pene-enclaves that are within a
>country's unbroken territorial waters a tongue.
>That's just me. You can define differently.
>I like having maps of most areas I can find, if
>possible, so if anybody wants photocopies, just ask if
>I have anything on the subject. I also could look for
>more information as I can go to libraries, but it does
>take me some time to research. Brendan is generally
>faster on these subjects than me, the curse of
>graduating from college.
>>
>> JUNGHOLZ
>> For quite some time I have wondered about the status
>> of Jungholz,
>> so thank you for the recent clarification on this
>> matter. I shall look
>> forward to the forthcoming reports from the single
>> connection point.
>>
>I don't like calling this an enclave as it does touch
>Austria at a point, but I haven't figured what to call
>it.
>
>> LLIVIA, CAMPIONE D'ITALIA, BAARLE-HERTOG, BUESINGEN
>> These are fairly wellknown exclaves. Do you discuss
>> them at all,
>> and if so, would anyone have any interesting links
>> or maps?
>>
>I have paper maps of all of them. Most of them have
>maps online too. Mapquest is fair about them.
>Brendan's maps on the group is the best I have seen on
>Llivia. Swissgeo is good for Campione and Busingen.
>Catudal had a fairly good book on the subject.
>
>> MOUNT ATHOS
>> Is this an enclave? How much political independence
>> is required
>> for us to consider a territory an enclave? By the
>> way, does complete
>> maritime exclusion count, or do we only concern
>> ourselves with
>> at least partly landlocked entities?
>>
>Enclaves have to be integral parts of another country.
> However, many people consider a small state lying
>next to another as enclave. Mount Athos does not
>really have the autonomy to be a country. The monks
>control their own area, but doesn't have any real
>autonomy, I believe. For example, there are US
>reservations which claim to be independent, but except
>self-government of citizens of the area, it is not a
>country. By the way, the Cypriot bases are considered
>integral parts of England and Algeria was considered
>integral parts of France.
>
>> ST PIERRE ET MIQUELON
>> Speaking of maritime exclusion, do we consider the
>> small french
>> islands just off the east coast of Canada an
>> exclave?
>>
>I don't think it is an integral part of France. If it
>was, I would consider it an exclave as St Pierre et
>Miquelon's territorial waters are surrounded by
>Canadian water, which is very rare.
><http://www.st-pierre-et-miquelon.com/english.html>
>http://www.st-pierre-et-miquelon.com/english.html is a
>good site.
>
>> GUANTANMO BASE
>> Guantanamo is an american naval base on Cuba. Does
>> anyone
>> have any interesting input?
>>
>There have been articles on Cuba and Guantanamo in
>National Geographic, and it may provide new
>information. USA has an unlimited lease on the area;
>a lease that Cuba is not willing to collect. I
>believe it is less than hundred dollars per year.
>There have been a few bases over the history which had
>as much control of its ownself as Guantanamo, but most
>have disappeared except the two Cypriot ones.
>
>> CASES OF EXCLAVES WITHIN EXCLAVES
>> Baarle-Hertog is a well-known example of the
>> extremely rare case, where
>> exclaves exist within exclaves. There is allegedly
>> another case in Oman.
>> Does anyone have any information on this? By the
>> way, did you know
>> that there is at least one Dutch exclave within the
>> main territory of
>> Belgium in the vicinity of Baarle? I'll scan a map
>> and put it here if anyone
>>
>> has interest in this fact.
>>
>The only book I have seen that mentions the enclave
>within Madha, the Omani enclave, is Gideon Biger's
>Encyclopedia of International Boundaries. There are
>also exclave within exclave in Bangladesh-India area.
>I did know of the Dutch enclaves within Belgium.
>
>> LITHUANIA
>> Is there, or is there not, a lithuanian exclave
>> within Belarus?
>>
>Yes, there is and it's called Pagiriai. The two
>countries are pondering exchanging the exclave,
>however. It can be seen in most maps of Lithuania,
>especially the official ones of the two countries.
>
>> THE VATICAN
>> Does anyone have a *good* map of the Vatican? I'd
>> like to be able to
>> see precisely where the border is.
>>
><http://www.rmnet.it/~pellegrino/ctv/city_map.htm>
>http://www.rmnet.it/~pellegrino/ctv/city_map.htm is
>the best map I have seen. The border generally
>follows walls, so it is easy to see.
>
>> CYPRUS
>> There seems to exist at least two british military
>> bases, constituting
>> independent territories, on Cyprus, and at least one
>> turk-cypriotic
>> exclave on the north-west coast of the island.
>> Information, anyone?
>>
>Yes, there is. There are also Cypriot exclaves and
>fragment in Dhekelia base. Most Turkish and Cypriot
>territory is separated by the UN. The Turkish
>separated territory is around a town.
>
>> CEUTA, MELILLA
>> Does anyone have information or good maps of the two
>> spanish
>> exclaves on the moroccan coast?
>>
>I have fairly good maps from a Moroccan book written
>in Arabic, which I don't understand. However, I don't
>have a scanner. You can check www.ceuta.com for a
>fairly good map of Ceuta. There are a few books on
>them and most good libraries should have them.
>
>> NEUTRAL ZONES
>> What neutral zones do we know of? Are there neutral
>> zones close to
>> Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla? And what happened to
>> the rombic shaped
>> neutral zone in the desert between Saudi Arabia and
>> Iraq? Is it still
>> there?
>>
>There are neutral zones around the territories. Check
>a Spanish atlas. The Gibraltar neutral zone shows up
>in most encyclopedias and Ceuta one is in the
>previously mentioned website. All of them also shows
>up on the Moroccan book I mentioned. The Saudi-Iraq
>one was divided in 1982 and like the Saudi-Kuwait one,
>the territory was divided, but the natural resources
>are divided equitably, not according to the land.
>
>> IRELAND
>> Was there ever an irish exclave within the territory
>> of Northern Ireland?
>> I have a map that would suggest such a case, but it
>> may well be a
>> badly produced map. Can anyone clarify this case?
>>
>Good question. I am still in search of that after
>reading it in a book. Do you know where it is
>supposed to be exactly? I see an almost separated
>territory in County Monaghan, but it seems to have
>always been connected to Ireland in historic times.
>
>> HISTORIC GEOGRAPHIC ANOMALIES
>>
>> Do you concern yourself at all with historic
>> enclaves? As the supply of
>> living enclaves and exclaves is finite, why not look
>> into some not-too-
>> long-gone cases?
>>
>I do. Please mention your list to me. However, the
>information on these are harder to come by.
>
>> WEST-BERLIN
>> Well, Berlin (West), surely the most well-known
>> exclave of the near past.
>> But did you know that there were several
>> sub-exclaves off Berlin, i. e.
>> areas within East-German territory belonging to
>> West-Berlin? I have
>> found Eiskeller, Steinstuecken (connected to
>> West-Berlin with a corridor
>> in 1971 or 1972, I think) and Falkenhagener Wiese.
>> Were there others?
>> What are their stories? Does anyone know? I have a
>> wonderful russian
>> map that outlines those sub-exclaves and I'll scan
>> it if anyone is
>> interested.
>>
>There were Twelve of them. Catudal has a book titled
>"Steinstucken" which is a great source of information
>for these. I have their names and areas in square
>meters which I can put on the web, if you want. There
>were also three East German exclaves in West Berlin.
>There was a German 1:6,000 atlas I have found, but the
>atlas was way too big to photocopy. I traced it, but
>am trying to make clean copies on the computer.
>
>> ZARA or ZADAR
>> Zara was an italian exclave on the coast of Croatia,
>> now called Zadar.
>> Does anyone have any information or maps?
>>
>No good maps, but there are a few historic books on
>the subject. Unfortunately, i can't read Italian, the
>subject the books are in. I do have maps on Fiume
>though, which was not an exclave.
>
>> PORKALA
>> Porkala was a large Soviet military base on the
>> Finish south coast.
>> I think the area was rented by the Soviets as part
>> of the peace treaty
>> following the second world war. Information, anyone?
>>
>Yes, it was. Originally, it was supposed to be Hanko,
>but Russians chose a different area after the war. I
>have a map, but again the text of the book was in
>Russian.
>
>> DANZIGER FREISTAAT
>> Does anyone have any information on the State of
>> Danzig, which existed
>> between the world wars? Good maps?
>>
>The Cambridge atlas of history has a good map. Books
>on German history is fairly good on the history.
>
>Arif
>
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