No, I am not away, but because of Ramadan, when prayer
time just increases a little, I had less time to
research and provide input. Also, visitation of
international tripoints is not the strongest suit of
mine and as the latest messages have focused on that,
I have not had the chance.
This message is mainly for Mats, but I am putting it
on the group to give my takes and new info on
exclaves.
By the way, Brendan, if any new info seems like a
discussion of your quiz answers, I am sorry.
First of all, my definition of enclaves is a piece of
territory completely surrounded by another. I
generally like to call separated pieces of a country
that borders the sea or more than one country
fragments and pene-enclaves that are within a
country's unbroken territorial waters a tongue.
That's just me. You can define differently.
I like having maps of most areas I can find, if
possible, so if anybody wants photocopies, just ask if
I have anything on the subject. I also could look for
more information as I can go to libraries, but it does
take me some time to research. Brendan is generally
faster on these subjects than me, the curse of
graduating from college.
>
> JUNGHOLZ
> For quite some time I have wondered about the status
> of Jungholz,
> so thank you for the recent clarification on this
> matter. I shall look
> forward to the forthcoming reports from the single
> connection point.
>
I don't like calling this an enclave as it does touch
Austria at a point, but I haven't figured what to call
it.
> LLIVIA, CAMPIONE D'ITALIA, BAARLE-HERTOG, BUESINGEN
> These are fairly wellknown exclaves. Do you discuss
> them at all,
> and if so, would anyone have any interesting links
> or maps?
>
I have paper maps of all of them. Most of them have
maps online too. Mapquest is fair about them.
Brendan's maps on the group is the best I have seen on
Llivia. Swissgeo is good for Campione and Busingen.
Catudal had a fairly good book on the subject.
> MOUNT ATHOS
> Is this an enclave? How much political independence
> is required
> for us to consider a territory an enclave? By the
> way, does complete
> maritime exclusion count, or do we only concern
> ourselves with
> at least partly landlocked entities?
>
Enclaves have to be integral parts of another country.
However, many people consider a small state lying
next to another as enclave. Mount Athos does not
really have the autonomy to be a country. The monks
control their own area, but doesn't have any real
autonomy, I believe. For example, there are US
reservations which claim to be independent, but except
self-government of citizens of the area, it is not a
country. By the way, the Cypriot bases are considered
integral parts of England and Algeria was considered
integral parts of France.
> ST PIERRE ET MIQUELON
> Speaking of maritime exclusion, do we consider the
> small french
> islands just off the east coast of Canada an
> exclave?
>
I don't think it is an integral part of France. If it
was, I would consider it an exclave as St Pierre et
Miquelon's territorial waters are surrounded by
Canadian water, which is very rare.
http://www.st-pierre-et-miquelon.com/english.html is a
good site.
> GUANTANMO BASE
> Guantanamo is an american naval base on Cuba. Does
> anyone
> have any interesting input?
>
There have been articles on Cuba and Guantanamo in
National Geographic, and it may provide new
information. USA has an unlimited lease on the area;
a lease that Cuba is not willing to collect. I
believe it is less than hundred dollars per year.
There have been a few bases over the history which had
as much control of its ownself as Guantanamo, but most
have disappeared except the two Cypriot ones.
> CASES OF EXCLAVES WITHIN EXCLAVES
> Baarle-Hertog is a well-known example of the
> extremely rare case, where
> exclaves exist within exclaves. There is allegedly
> another case in Oman.
> Does anyone have any information on this? By the
> way, did you know
> that there is at least one Dutch exclave within the
> main territory of
> Belgium in the vicinity of Baarle? I'll scan a map
> and put it here if anyone
>
> has interest in this fact.
>
The only book I have seen that mentions the enclave
within Madha, the Omani enclave, is Gideon Biger's
Encyclopedia of International Boundaries. There are
also exclave within exclave in Bangladesh-India area.
I did know of the Dutch enclaves within Belgium.
> LITHUANIA
> Is there, or is there not, a lithuanian exclave
> within Belarus?
>
Yes, there is and it's called Pagiriai. The two
countries are pondering exchanging the exclave,
however. It can be seen in most maps of Lithuania,
especially the official ones of the two countries.
> THE VATICAN
> Does anyone have a *good* map of the Vatican? I'd
> like to be able to
> see precisely where the border is.
>
http://www.rmnet.it/~pellegrino/ctv/city_map.htm is
the best map I have seen. The border generally
follows walls, so it is easy to see.
> CYPRUS
> There seems to exist at least two british military
> bases, constituting
> independent territories, on Cyprus, and at least one
> turk-cypriotic
> exclave on the north-west coast of the island.
> Information, anyone?
>
Yes, there is. There are also Cypriot exclaves and
fragment in Dhekelia base. Most Turkish and Cypriot
territory is separated by the UN. The Turkish
separated territory is around a town.
> CEUTA, MELILLA
> Does anyone have information or good maps of the two
> spanish
> exclaves on the moroccan coast?
>
I have fairly good maps from a Moroccan book written
in Arabic, which I don't understand. However, I don't
have a scanner. You can check www.ceuta.com for a
fairly good map of Ceuta. There are a few books on
them and most good libraries should have them.
> NEUTRAL ZONES
> What neutral zones do we know of? Are there neutral
> zones close to
> Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla? And what happened to
> the rombic shaped
> neutral zone in the desert between Saudi Arabia and
> Iraq? Is it still
> there?
>
There are neutral zones around the territories. Check
a Spanish atlas. The Gibraltar neutral zone shows up
in most encyclopedias and Ceuta one is in the
previously mentioned website. All of them also shows
up on the Moroccan book I mentioned. The Saudi-Iraq
one was divided in 1982 and like the Saudi-Kuwait one,
the territory was divided, but the natural resources
are divided equitably, not according to the land.
> IRELAND
> Was there ever an irish exclave within the territory
> of Northern Ireland?
> I have a map that would suggest such a case, but it
> may well be a
> badly produced map. Can anyone clarify this case?
>
Good question. I am still in search of that after
reading it in a book. Do you know where it is
supposed to be exactly? I see an almost separated
territory in County Monaghan, but it seems to have
always been connected to Ireland in historic times.
> HISTORIC GEOGRAPHIC ANOMALIES
>
> Do you concern yourself at all with historic
> enclaves? As the supply of
> living enclaves and exclaves is finite, why not look
> into some not-too-
> long-gone cases?
>
I do. Please mention your list to me. However, the
information on these are harder to come by.
> WEST-BERLIN
> Well, Berlin (West), surely the most well-known
> exclave of the near past.
> But did you know that there were several
> sub-exclaves off Berlin, i. e.
> areas within East-German territory belonging to
> West-Berlin? I have
> found Eiskeller, Steinstuecken (connected to
> West-Berlin with a corridor
> in 1971 or 1972, I think) and Falkenhagener Wiese.
> Were there others?
> What are their stories? Does anyone know? I have a
> wonderful russian
> map that outlines those sub-exclaves and I'll scan
> it if anyone is
> interested.
>
There were Twelve of them. Catudal has a book titled
"Steinstucken" which is a great source of information
for these. I have their names and areas in square
meters which I can put on the web, if you want. There
were also three East German exclaves in West Berlin.
There was a German 1:6,000 atlas I have found, but the
atlas was way too big to photocopy. I traced it, but
am trying to make clean copies on the computer.
> ZARA or ZADAR
> Zara was an italian exclave on the coast of Croatia,
> now called Zadar.
> Does anyone have any information or maps?
>
No good maps, but there are a few historic books on
the subject. Unfortunately, i can't read Italian, the
subject the books are in. I do have maps on Fiume
though, which was not an exclave.
> PORKALA
> Porkala was a large Soviet military base on the
> Finish south coast.
> I think the area was rented by the Soviets as part
> of the peace treaty
> following the second world war. Information, anyone?
>
Yes, it was. Originally, it was supposed to be Hanko,
but Russians chose a different area after the war. I
have a map, but again the text of the book was in
Russian.
> DANZIGER FREISTAAT
> Does anyone have any information on the State of
> Danzig, which existed
> between the world wars? Good maps?
>
The Cambridge atlas of history has a good map. Books
on German history is fairly good on the history.
Arif
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