I'll be at the national map office in a couple of hours!

Doug

----- Original Message -----

From: acroorca2002

To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 7:04 AM

Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: St Pierre et Miquelon

another great find peter & i agree this is the right stuff & also share your continuing uncertainty at least until we see the right map however it is also conceivable that there is no map in the world detailed enough to finally resolve this particular uncertainty also i think the really interesting turn points are not only numbers 4 & 5 but number 6 as well since it is all 3 of these that define the exact angle that cafr cuts around the west point of the southwesternmost islet of the little green islands group & we can already see from dougs map attached to message 8224 which not only seems to follow these coords quite closely but even points to the spot in question with a big red arrow that the angle produced there will be less than 145 degrees & given the concavity of this angle & also given that there is no mention of base lines in your text but only of this single relevant turn point it seems highly improbable that such an angle could just nick a single point on the coastline of this islet without touching & indeed crossing some other part of its dry land area as well no matter what the overall shape of the islet or the irregularities of its coastline at low tide perhaps a turn point with a convex angle could manage this nick or perhaps an improbably long & acute rock projection or sandspit etc with just the perfect orientation & configuration could fit together with all the rest of the islet into the 145 degrees of arc so as to receive only so punctilious a nick but given the data we do have any such outcome seems far fetched or wouldnt you agree so for this reason as well as because france evidently does think she owns at least some part of something in the spm group she calls ile verte however rightly or ignorantly that may be per the link in message 8258 my best guess remains affirmative regarding dougs dream that there is at least some small segment of a dry cafr lurking there --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@y...> wrote: > I'm still not sure, though. > > The CAFR boundary regarding territorial waters was not regulated by > the court of arbitration ruling of 1992, but earlier on, and finally > regulated by an agreement dating from 1974. I've found the following > at > http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/20051m_040201/french _depende > nciesfinal.doc , and this implies that there is not a land boundary. > But only a detailed map would shed enough light on the issue to be > sure. > > Boundary turning points 4 and 5 are really interesting. They are on > the low water mark. And what to make of the remark "Islands were both > considered and ignored as locational factors in the boundary > delimitation"? Does this only apply to the use of them (i.e. their > base lines) as a base from which the territorial waters were defined? > > --------- > > FRANCE-CANADA: TERRITORIAL SEA BOUNDARY > (ST.PIERRE AND MIQUELON), March 1972, Excerpts > > The agreement and the comments following are extracted from Limits in > the Seas, No. 57, "Canada-St. Pierre and Miquelon Territorial Sea > Boundary," 12 September 1974. > > The line which determines the limit of the territorial waters of > Canada and the zones submitted to the fishery jurisdiction of France > extends northward and westward in a series of eight connected > straight lines joining the following points: > > TABLE 2-71 > FRANCE-CANADA MARITIME BOUNDARY > > POINT / LINES > 1. Equidistant 12 nm from L'Enfant Perdu (France) and Lamaline Shag > Rock (Canada). Latitude 46°38'46"N., Longitude 55°54'12"W. > approximately. > 2. Equidistant from L'Enfant Perdu (France) and Lamaline Shag Rock > and Otter Rock (Canada). Latitude 46°41'56"N., Longitude 55° > 58'57"W.approximately. > 3. Equidistant from L'Enfant Perdu (France) and Otter Rock and Enfant > Perdu (Canada). Latitude 46°48'10"N., Longitude 55°58'57"W. > approximately. > 4. The low water mark on the south-westernmost point on Enfant Perdu > (Canada). Latitude 46°51'20"N., Longitude 56°05'30"W. approximately. > 5. The low water mark on the west point of the south-westernmost > island of the Little Green Island group. Latitude 46°51'36"N., > Longitude 56°05'58"W. approximately. > 6. The intersection of the French mid-channel line of 1907 with a > line parallel to, and 3 miles distant from a line joining Green > Island to Dantzig Point. Latitude 46°55'52"N., Longitude 56°07'47"W. > approximately. > 7. The intersection of the French mid-channel line of 1907 with the > median line, equidistant from Bout du Nordet (France) and Little > Plate Island (Canada). Latitude 47°06'02"N., Longitude 56°06'18" W. > approximately. > 8. Equidistant from Cap du Nid a l'Aigle (France) and Little Plate > Island and the southwest Wolf Rock (Canada). Latitude 47°18'19"N. > Longitude 56°15'18"W. approximately. > 9. The intersection of the French mid-channel line of 1907 with the > outer limit of Canada's 12-mile territorial Sea. Latitude 47° > 21'54"N., Longitude 56°29'40"W. approximately. > > U.S. ANALYSIS > > The analysis of the Canada-St. Pierre and Miquelon territorial sea > boundary utilized DMAHC Chart N.O. 14340, 20th Edition, November > 1943, revised November 11, 1972, and Canadian Hydrographic Service > Chart 405, compiled in 1971. The territorial sea agreement and > boundary delimitation were printed on the above Canadian chart. > > The territorial sea boundary extends for a distance of 54.34 nm, with > an average distance between the turning point of 6.79 nm. The > average water depth at the turning points is 60.6 fathoms, with > depths ranging from 35 to 160 fathoms. > > Five of the territorial sea boundary turning points are equidistant > from Canadian and French territory. Overall, the turning points are > an average of 6.79 nm from Canadian territory and 7.62 nm from St. > Pierre and Miquelon. > > The southern terminus of the territorial sea boundary, Point 1, is > located 12 nm equidistant from L'Enfant Perdu (France) 46°47'08"N., > 56°06'48"W.) and Lamaline Shag Rock (Canada) (46°50'24"N., 55° > 49'40"W.). > > Turning Point 2 is 9.30 nm equidistant from L'Enfant Perdu (France) > and Lamaline Shag Rock and Otter Rock (46°51'00"N., 55°52'16"W.) > (Canada). The distance between Point 1 and Point 2 is 3.16 nm. > > Point 3 is 6.61 nm from Point 2 and 6.61 nm equidistant from L'Enfant > Perdu (France) and Otter Rock and Enfant Perdu (Canada). > > From Point 3 to Point 4 is a distance of 5.50 nm. Point 4 is not > equidistant from French and Canadian territory; it is located at the > low-water mark off the southwest point of Enfant Perdu, a Canadian > islet. Petit Colombier, a French islet immediately north of Great > Colombier, is 3.25 nm from Point 4 and is the nearest French > territory. > > Point 4 and 5 are separated by a distance of 0.35 nm. Point 5 is not > equidistant from the two sovereignties, but is located at the low- > water mark on the west point of the south-westernmost island of the > Little Green Island group, which is Canadian. Petit Colombier, 3.18 > nm southwest of Point 5, is the closest French islet. > > The distance between Points 5 and 6 is 4.40 nm. Point 6 is not an > equidistant site; it is located at the intersection of the French mid- > channel line of 1907 with a line parallel to, and 3 nm west of, a > line joining Green Island and Dantzic Point, Newfoundland. The > nearest Canadian territory to Point 6 is 5.88 nm at a location a > little north of Little Dantzic Cove. The French islet of Petit du > Cap, north of Cap Perce, is 5.22 nm from Point 6. > > Point 7 is 10.30 nm from Point 6, and is also 5.30 nm equidistant > from Little Plate Island (Canada) and Bout du Nordet (47°04'43"N., 56° > 13'13"W.) (France). Point 7 also marks the intersection of the > French mid-channel line of 1907 and the median line equidistant from > the islands of Little Plate and Bout du Nordet. > > It is 13.68 nm between Points 7 and 8. According to the annex to the > agreement, Point 8 is equidistant from Cap du Nid a l'Aigle (variant > name is Cap Miquelon) (France) and Little Plate Island and the > southwest Wolf Rocks (Canada). An analysis of the Canadian and U.S. > hydrographic charts reveals that it is Big Plate Island and not > Little Plate Island that is the location which is equidistant from > Point 8 on the Canadian side. Further, it is the southernmost Wolf > Rocks, and not the southwest Wolf Rocks, which is another site on the > Canadian side equidistant from Point 8. Point 8 is 10.30 nm from > both Canadian and French territory. > > The distance from Point 8 to Point 9 is 10.34 nm. Point 9 is not > equidistant from French and Canadian territory; it is situated at the > intersection of the French-mid-channel line of 1907 and the outer > limit of Canada's 12nm territorial sea. The territorial sea is > measured from the Canadian straight baseline which closes Hermitage > Bay. Point 9 is 12.85 nm from southwest Wolf Rocks (Canada and > 14.50nm from Cap du Nid a l'Aigle (Cap Miquelon) (France). > > Summary > > The territorial sea boundary between St. Pierre and Miquelon (France) > and Newfoundland (Canada) utilizes both the equidistance principle > and negotiated locations in delimiting the 54.34 nm boundary. Five > of the turning points are equidistant locations, whereas the other > four points represent negotiated positions. Islands were both > considered and ignored as locational factors in the boundary > delimitation. > > --------- > > Peter S. > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Doug Murray" <doug@d...> wrote: > > Wow! Good work Peter! > > > > I think I will go down to the Topo map office here and see if there > is a sheet showing the area in detail. Could you imagine if we've > discovered a CAFR land boundary?! How exciting. > > > > By the way, I get a TV channel from St-Pierre on my satellite > system. I love watching their news! > > > > Doug > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Peter Smaardijk > > To: BoundaryPoint@y... > > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:23 PM > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: St Pierre et Miquelon > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Doug Murray" <doug@d...> wrote: > > > > > > Here's a map showing Green Island and several others near > CAFR. My > > quest is to find a chart that covers this area... my dream is > that > > the boundary runs across one of the Islands. > > > > > > Well, the dream could be reality! > > > > Found at http://www.st-pierre-et- > miquelon.com/musee/tricoche.html : > > > > "(...) Un de ces îlots, l'île Verte, où l'on aurait à peine la > place > > de bâtir une maison de taille ordinaire et ses dépendances, > contient > > ce qu'on appelle en plaisantant " la frontière de terre de Saint- > > Pierre-et-Miquelon ". C'est qu'en effet, il appartient par moitié > à > > la France et à Terre-Neuve. (...)" > > > > (One of these islands, the Green Island, with hardly any space to > > build a house of normal dimensions and its annexes, contains what > is > > jokingly called "the land boundary of Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon". > It > > is indeed split in half between France and Newfoundland) > > > > Peter S. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service.

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