Subject: Re: German Exclave in the Vatican<br/>
Date: Feb 25, 2002 @ 14:27<br/>
Author: shocktm (&quot;shocktm&quot; &lt;andrew@...&gt;)<br/>
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<div id="ygrps-yiv-1660459087">--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., &quot;lnadybal&quot; &lt;lnadybal@h...&gt; wrote:<br/>
<blockquote><span title="ireply"> &gt; I just posted a photo from a 1972 article I&#39;ve saved for years that <br/>
&gt; pictures the Camp Santo Teutonico which is surrounded by the <br/>
&gt; building that houses the Teutonic College, just to the west of St. <br/>
&gt; Peters.  I&#39;ve tried for years to learn how this came to be and to<br/>
&gt; learn what German official administers it.  <br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; Does anyone have any insight?  <br/>
&gt; <br/>
&gt; Is the whole building that surrounds the cemetary extraterritorial, <br/>
&gt; or just the cemetary within the walls?  <br/>
&gt;<br/>
&gt; The existence of this piece of land with this status begs the<br/>
&gt; question as to whether the barracks of the Swiss guards have any <br/>
&gt; extraterritorial status we never hear about?  Are there any other <br/>
&gt; extraterritorial or diplomatic enclaves in the Vatican proper, or<br/>
&gt; are all countries that have relations with the Holy See represented <br/>
&gt; by ambassadors who are housed outside the Vatican at ther missions <br/>
&gt; to Italy?  <br/>
<br/>
 </span></blockquote>Calling it an exclave is a bit of overstating. It is not a sovereign <br/>
piece of Germany but most likely an administratively part of a German <br/>
archdiocese. There are no enclaves/exclaves within the Vatican or <br/>
Vatican exclaves/enclaves outside of the Vatican. The Vatican has <br/>
extraterritorial on several buildings in Rome, but extraterritorial <br/>
is just an administrative/juristically matter not a sovereignty one. <br/>
The only clave one sees in the Vatican is a conclave*. (Hopefully not <br/>
soon)<br/>
<br/>
The Vatican opens a large can of worms as it relates to <br/>
administrative statuses. The Vatican is ruled by the Pope, a person <br/>
with several titles and offices. First among these is that the Pope <br/>
is the Bishop of Rome. This indicates that the Pope has ecclesiastic <br/>
powers of all of Rome. This makes it difficult for other Catholic <br/>
institutions to exist in the Vatican as they have no power over <br/>
themselves. In order to solve this problem many ecclesiastic enclaves <br/>
exist. One being the Teutonic College but it would include the <br/>
Ethiopian College, the headquarters of the Jesuits, an office of <br/>
Mother Teresa Order, etc. Ultimately having these ecclesiastic <br/>
enclaves really does not matter much as the Pope is the Supreme <br/>
leader of the Catholic Church and has power over the occupants of <br/>
these ecclesiastic enclaves.<br/>
<br/>
The second issue you bring up (diplomatic status) bring up another <br/>
can of worms. Most people think the Vatican and The Holy See are one <br/>
in the same thing. Unfortunately they are not. The Holy See is the <br/>
corporate headquarters of the Catholic Church. Currently it is <br/>
located in the country called Vatican City State. This has not always <br/>
been the case. For example the Holy See was located in Vaucluse, <br/>
France for about a hundred years. Also before 1929, the Holy See was <br/>
in Italy (even though it was in the Vatican). In 1929, the Holy See <br/>
and Italy signed the Laternal Treaties which guaranteed the Catholic <br/>
church independence from Italy (and Italy from the Holy See) by <br/>
creating the Vatican City State.<br/>
<br/>
Vatican City State is a strange country as it has no citizens (All <br/>
residences are citizens of other countries - the Pope being Polish) <br/>
and no diplomatic representation (all representation is to the Holy <br/>
See not Vatican City State). This gives us a situation like the <br/>
United Nations in NYC (A international recognized organization who <br/>
has ambassadors to it but who are located in a third country). I <br/>
assume that in the case of the Holy See, Italy allows the missions to <br/>
exist with specific rules. <br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<blockquote><span title="ireply"> &gt; I know that during WWII there were diplomats who were &quot;trapped&quot; in <br/>
&gt; the Vatican, in some cases for years, but I don&#39;t think their<br/>
&gt; presence there made the ground they stood on or the rooms in which <br/>
&gt; they performed their official magic at any given time, into little <br/>
&gt; mobile extraterritorial pieces of wherever it was that they had<br/>
&gt; come from.  But even though I don&#39;t think that, it could have been. <br/>
&gt; No?<br/>
<br/>
 </span></blockquote>If the Holy See officially assigned an ambassador an office to <br/>
operate within the Vatican, it would have extraterritorial status <br/>
(just as Embassy does or the Ambassador residence does). The place <br/>
where the Ambassador is for a moment does not have extraterritorial <br/>
status.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
-Andrew<br/>
Fairfax, VA, USA<br/>
<br/>
* A Conclave is held to elect a new Pope on the death of the current <br/>
occupent.</div>