According to G.W.S. robinson in the 1950s, a pene-enclave is part of the
territory of one country, that can be approached conveniently, esp by
wheeled traffic, only through the territory of another.
There are a few valleys in Europe that are in one country, but approachable,
esp in winter, only via the mouth of the valley which is in another country.
Sometimes there are 'peninsulas' of one country into another with similar
access best through the neighbour. This is often the result of a dis-union,
esp in the ex USSR.
There are 2 and 3 letter abbreviations for countries in the ISO system. I
presume, but am not sure, that these are the same as those on the end of
URLs and email addresses: ca for canada, cn for China, etc.
Previous discussions have looked at national airline tags (TE for Air New
Zealand in the past, now NZ), aircraft digraphs (ZK for New Zealand), boat
digraphs (KZ for New Zealand), etc.
BW
>From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Digest Number 586
>Date: 28 Jan 2002 09:38:27 -0000
>
>There are 8 messages in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. RE: Vimy, Mol-Ukr, Vennbahn, Mt Paektu
> From: "Ray Milefsky" <mrrayj@...>
> 2. RE: Moldovan exclave and other comments
> From: "Ray Milefsky" <mrrayj@...>
> 3. Re: Moldovan exclave and other comments
> From: "Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen" <jesniel@...>
> 4. Re: Moldovan exclave and other comments
> From: "granthutchison" <granthutchison@...>
> 5. New file uploaded to BoundaryPoint
> From: BoundaryPoint
> 6. Digraphs
> From: "lnadybal" <lnadybal@...>
> 7. Re: Mt Paektu
> From: "granthutchison" <granthutchison@...>
> 8. Re: Digraphs
> From: "Peter Hering" <hering@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 07:55:12 -0500
> From: "Ray Milefsky" <mrrayj@...>
>Subject: RE: Vimy, Mol-Ukr, Vennbahn, Mt Paektu
>
>The problem with Paektu is that Chinese maps show the lake split through
>the
>middle (sort of ne-sw axis), North Korean atlases show no line, South
>Korean
>maps take the whole lake (in the majority of cases) and US government maps
>give the whole mountain to China (based on 1946 maps) and label the line
>indefinite or approximate, depending on source. The commercial vendors
>have
>a mish-mash. I am trying to change our official depiction to mirror
>reality, which I cannot do without a treaty or authoritative native maps
>that agree. Any suggestions? Thanks indeed for your insights, Brendan.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brendan Whyte [mailto:b.whyte@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 6:59 PM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Vimy, Mol-Ukr, Vennbahn, Mt Paektu
>
>
> Mt Paektu: there has been a NK/Ch agreement, to split the mountain in
>half.
> You can visit the lake fomr either country. China is making a real
>tourist
> kitchy thing of it with cablecars etc. Yuk.
> My Korean contact knows the mountain is dividedi n half, but suspects
>the
> lake waters are a condo. He says while the NK-Rus boundary and
> Chinese-Russian boundaries in rivers use the midpoint or thalweg, the
> NK-Chin river boundaries are on each country's bank, with the waters
> themselves as a condo.
>
>
> Moldov-Ukr enclave: old soviet atlases fomr the 1950s etc show numerous
> enclaves between SSRs that no longer exist: Kaz-Rus and Karelia
> (A)SSR-Russia, and the one Moldoa-Ukrain are some of them. The Ruskis
> changed internal boundaries fairly frequently so these came and went. I
> await some scholar producing an atlas of soviet internal boundaries, at
> least at SSR level with all documents in translation.
> Any takers?
>
>
> Vimy: The Commonwealth War Grave Commission has control over
>Commonwealth
> graves in Africa, Europe, Middle East etc. NZ, Austrlaia, Canada and UK
> control this, and have sections of their govts that maintain the graves.
> Austrlaia maintians the war graves at Katchanaburi(?) in Thailand for
> example.
> Placesl ike Vimy, St Quentin and other associated with a particular
> commonwealrth country may well have signs and placenamesa that
>commemorate
> their liberators. There are "Rue de Nouvelle Zealandes" in small French
> villages for example, and St Quentin has an Australia gate i believe.
>
> Thus it would not surprise me if signage has a Canadian look to it.
>Partly
> out5 of repsect for the past, and partly to promote tourism, which to
>these
> small villages comes fomr the veterans and their relatives.
> There is a huge ANZAC pilgrimage to Gallipoli for example.
> So these would be quasi-enclaves, real estate owned by the respective
> governments in some capacity. Not real enclaves.
>
> Compare the Ecuadorian cemetery i Peru, owned by Ecuador, as part of
>their
> final peace treaty and boundary delimitation in 1999(?).
>
>
> Vennbahn: I will have to recheck my documents again Len. I suggest you
> contact rudi Longueville in Belgium who would probably know in more
>detail.
> My translations of the treaties are pretty rough, but I am presuming
>that
> Bewlgium has full and proper sovereignty over the rila line and its
> undersoil, although it did agree to maintian the line in accordance with
> German signage, regulations etc. That is less an infringement of
>sovereignty
> than a practical measure given the nature of the boundary. To resign all
>the
> stations with Franch names, ie Montoie instead of monschau would be
>spiteful
> given that thew patronage of the stations was 99% German. Those clauses
>just
> helped maintain a sensible working relationship and prevented any nasty
>rail
> official in Belgium deciding to try and needle the German residents
> dependent on the now-Belgian railway. None of the clauses seem
>excessive.
> given the bad feelings on each side immediately after the war, it was
> sensible for officials at a high level to spell out what could and oculd
>not
> be done on the railway, to prevent any minor incidents provoking unrest
>and
> tension.
> But i will reread my material in the next few weeks and check this
>again.
>
>
> BW
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:03:14 -0500
> From: "Ray Milefsky" <mrrayj@...>
>Subject: RE: Moldovan exclave and other comments
>
>Being a novice to this site, I am baffled by terms such as pene-enclave.
>Without a clear definition I am afraid I cannot employ it in my
>professional
>life, but I seem to understand what it means. Can any of you afficionados
>give me a clear definition that I can pass around to my fellow
>synorologists
>in Legal?
>
>Another thing I find interesting is your use of digraphs (two letters for
>independent states and other political entities. At the State Department
>website (www.state.gov) we use the digraphs established by the US Board on
>Geographic names, which, granted are a little obscure (LO for Slovenia, EZ
>for the Czech Republic, TC for UAE, BH for Belize) because either
>historical
>colonial abbreviations (Trucial states) or we are running out of digraphs
>(can't recycle -- CZ is for Czechoslovakia). Where do you guys come up
>with
>your digraphs? Perhaps we should use the UN trigraph system?
>
>Ray
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: m donner [mailto:maxivan82@...]
>Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:30 PM
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Moldovan exclave and other comments
>
>
> >From: Arif
>
> >To add my two-cents on the word pene-exclave. I like
> >using the word, but it doesn't always give a true idea
> >of what geography the place has. We seem to call
> >tongues separated by water, a place which is separated
> >by a point or a mountain and all such things as
> >pene-exclaves. To use the word pene-exclave without a
> >qualifier is kind of odd, IMO.
>
>i agree completely
>
>better yet why dont we find or invent & then use adequate words in the
>first
>place
>
>i think we will understand each other better if we do
>
>m
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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>http://www.hotmail.com
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:00:49 +0100
> From: "Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen" <jesniel@...>
>Subject: Re: Moldovan exclave and other comments
>
>http://parole.aporee.org/work/print.php?words_id=756
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ray Milefsky
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:03 PM
> Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Moldovan exclave and other comments
>
>
> Being a novice to this site, I am baffled by terms such as pene-enclave.
> Without a clear definition I am afraid I cannot employ it in my
>professional
> life, but I seem to understand what it means. Can any of you
>afficionados
> give me a clear definition that I can pass around to my fellow
>synorologists
> in Legal?
>
> Another thing I find interesting is your use of digraphs (two letters
>for
> independent states and other political entities. At the State
>Department
> website (www.state.gov) we use the digraphs established by the US Board
>on
> Geographic names, which, granted are a little obscure (LO for Slovenia,
>EZ
> for the Czech Republic, TC for UAE, BH for Belize) because either
>historical
> colonial abbreviations (Trucial states) or we are running out of
>digraphs
> (can't recycle -- CZ is for Czechoslovakia). Where do you guys come up
>with
> your digraphs? Perhaps we should use the UN trigraph system?
>
> Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: m donner [mailto:maxivan82@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:30 PM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Moldovan exclave and other comments
>
>
> >From: Arif
>
> >To add my two-cents on the word pene-exclave. I like
> >using the word, but it doesn't always give a true idea
> >of what geography the place has. We seem to call
> >tongues separated by water, a place which is separated
> >by a point or a mountain and all such things as
> >pene-exclaves. To use the word pene-exclave without a
> >qualifier is kind of odd, IMO.
>
> i agree completely
>
> better yet why dont we find or invent & then use adequate words in the
>first
> place
>
> i think we will understand each other better if we do
>
> m
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
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>[This message contained attachments]
>
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>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:45:20 -0000
> From: "granthutchison" <granthutchison@...>
>Subject: Re: Moldovan exclave and other comments
>
>Ray:
> > At the State Department
> > website (www.state.gov) we use the digraphs established by the US
>Board on
> > Geographic names, which, granted are a little obscure (LO for
>Slovenia, EZ
> > for the Czech Republic, TC for UAE, BH for Belize)
>
>Tut tut. The State Department doesn't seem to have been keeping up
>with the FIPS 10-4 Publication Change Notices at
>http://164.214.2.59/gns/html/fips/fips_files.html
>Although the State Department website does give TC as the FIPS
>diagraph for the UAE, this code was changed to AE by the first
>Publication Change Notice on 1 Dec 1998.
>
> > Where do you guys come up with
> > your digraphs? Perhaps we should use the UN trigraph system?
>I do find the digraphs confusing - there have been a couple of
>occasions recently when everyone has been communicating is a sort of
>ISO/FIPS hybrid, the meaning of which was only obvious from context.
>So I, too, would prefer the trigraphs because it's usually obvious to
>the reader what country is being indicated, without looking up a
>table. But imagine the confusion if we mix tri- and di-graphs! Do
>those six letters refer to a digraph tripoint or a trigraph border?
>Aaaaaargh.
>
>(For anyone interested in the ludicrous number of different country
>codes available, I uploaded a summary to the Files area a while back.)
>
>Grant
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 5
> Date: 28 Jan 2002 01:42:13 -0000
> From: BoundaryPoint
>Subject: New file uploaded to BoundaryPoint
>
>
>Hello,
>
>This email message is a notification to let you know that
>a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the BoundaryPoint
>group.
>
> File : /belgmap1-50k-vennb.jpg
> Uploaded by : lnadybal <lnadybal@...>
> Description : Vennbahn - Belgian Govt Map
>
>You can access this file at the URL
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/files/belgmap1-50k-vennb.jpg
>
>To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
>Regards,
>
>lnadybal <lnadybal@...>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 01:39:38 -0000
> From: "lnadybal" <lnadybal@...>
>Subject: Digraphs
>
>Why don't we use the internationally recognized automobile
>registration initials. They've been in place for decades. Many
>postal services around the world use them, and they are often, in
>Europe especially, the prefixes for postcodes on outgoing
>international mail. I.e.,
>
>D = Germany
>CH = Switzerland
>GB = Great Britain
>GBJ = Jersey
>GBG = Guernsey
>GBZ = Gibraltar
>RSA = South Africa
>I = Italy
>RSM = San Marino
>YU = Yugoslavia
>SLO = Slovenia
>
>Guess these:
>
>BZH
>DZ
>
>
>
>.... there's hardly a country without a code, and these codes are all
>related to geography - for people driving around and mail routing.
>Even when countries go out of existence, you can still use their
>codes:
>
>DDR = East Germany
>SU = Soviet Union
>
>We have a tendency to reinvent wheels for every profession, and it
>isn't necessary.
>
>Len Nadybal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
>wrote:
> > http://parole.aporee.org/work/print.php?words_id=756
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ray Milefsky
> > To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:03 PM
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Moldovan exclave and other comments
> >
> >
> > Being a novice to this site, I am baffled by terms such as
>pene-enclave.
> > Without a clear definition I am afraid I cannot employ it in my
>professional
> > life, but I seem to understand what it means. Can any of you
>afficionados
> > give me a clear definition that I can pass around to my fellow
>synorologists
> > in Legal?
> >
> > Another thing I find interesting is your use of digraphs (two
>letters for
> > independent states and other political entities. At the State
>Department
> > website (www.state.gov) we use the digraphs established by the US
>Board on
> > Geographic names, which, granted are a little obscure (LO for
>Slovenia, EZ
> > for the Czech Republic, TC for UAE, BH for Belize) because either
>historical
> > colonial abbreviations (Trucial states) or we are running out of
>digraphs
> > (can't recycle -- CZ is for Czechoslovakia). Where do you guys
>come up with
> > your digraphs? Perhaps we should use the UN trigraph system?
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: m donner [mailto:maxivan82@h...]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:30 PM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Moldovan exclave and other comments
> >
> >
> > >From: Arif
> >
> > >To add my two-cents on the word pene-exclave. I like
> > >using the word, but it doesn't always give a true idea
> > >of what geography the place has. We seem to call
> > >tongues separated by water, a place which is separated
> > >by a point or a mountain and all such things as
> > >pene-exclaves. To use the word pene-exclave without a
> > >qualifier is kind of odd, IMO.
> >
> > i agree completely
> >
> > better yet why dont we find or invent & then use adequate words in
>the first
> > place
> >
> > i think we will understand each other better if we do
> >
> > m
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service.
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:29:03 -0000
> From: "granthutchison" <granthutchison@...>
>Subject: Re: Mt Paektu
>
> > The precise orientation of the split is important in at least one
> > respect. Paektu is the highest mountain in North Korea, and its height
> > is usually given as 2744ft. But the 2744ft summit (Bai Yun Feng) lies
> > in the NW of the crater rim and maps I've seen put it in China,
> > leaving 2700ft Jiang Jin Feng in the SE as the highest point of Paektu
> > on Korean soil. I'd dearly love to know the exact run of the border.
>Oops. Metres, not feet.
>
>Grant
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:09:39 +0100 (Rom, normaltid)
> From: "Peter Hering" <hering@...>
>Subject: Re: Digraphs
>
>Dear Len,
>I would certainly agree with you on this matter - if
>our issues were European ones only!
>The problem is that so many non-Europ. countries
>don't have proper car registration initials - so we
>have to agree on an international standard - that's
>why I support the current system...!
>Btw: I'm convinced that the near future means
>bringing these two standards together - as far
>as I know, Sweden intends to change its intern'l
>initials to SE...also for cars... pls correct me, dear
>Swedish BP-members (well, Mats?)if I'm wrong here...
>Peter Hering
>
>-------Original Message-------
>
>From: lnadybal
>Date: Monday, January 28, 2002 04:09:48
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Digraphs
>
>Why don't we use the internationally recognized automobile
>registration initials. They've been in place for decades. Many
>postal services around the world use them, and they are often, in
>Europe especially, the prefixes for postcodes on outgoing
>international mail. I.e.,
>
>D = Germany
>CH = Switzerland
>GB = Great Britain
>GBJ = Jersey
>GBG = Guernsey
>GBZ = Gibraltar
>RSA = South Africa
>I = Italy
>RSM = San Marino
>YU = Yugoslavia
>SLO = Slovenia
>
>Guess these:
>
>BZH
>DZ
>
>
>
>..... there's hardly a country without a code, and these codes are all
>related to geography - for people driving around and mail routing.
>Even when countries go out of existence, you can still use their
>codes:
>
>DDR = East Germany
>SU = Soviet Union
>
>We have a tendency to reinvent wheels for every profession, and it
>isn't necessary.
>
>Len Nadybal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
>wrote:
> > http://parole.aporee.org/work/print.php?words_id=756
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ray Milefsky
> > To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:03 PM
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Moldovan exclave and other comments
> >
> >
> > Being a novice to this site, I am baffled by terms such as
>pene-enclave.
> > Without a clear definition I am afraid I cannot employ it in my
>professional
> > life, but I seem to understand what it means. Can any of you
>afficionados
> > give me a clear definition that I can pass around to my fellow
>synorologists
> > in Legal?
> >
> > Another thing I find interesting is your use of digraphs (two
>letters for
> > independent states and other political entities. At the State
>Department
> > website (www.state.gov) we use the digraphs established by the US
>Board on
> > Geographic names, which, granted are a little obscure (LO for
>Slovenia, EZ
> > for the Czech Republic, TC for UAE, BH for Belize) because either
>historical
> > colonial abbreviations (Trucial states) or we are running out of
>digraphs
> > (can't recycle -- CZ is for Czechoslovakia). Where do you guys
>come up with
> > your digraphs? Perhaps we should use the UN trigraph system?
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: m donner [mailto:maxivan82@h...]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:30 PM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Moldovan exclave and other comments
> >
> >
> > >From: Arif
> >
> > >To add my two-cents on the word pene-exclave. I like
> > >using the word, but it doesn't always give a true idea
> > >of what geography the place has. We seem to call
> > >tongues separated by water, a place which is separated
> > >by a point or a mountain and all such things as
> > >pene-exclaves. To use the word pene-exclave without a
> > >qualifier is kind of odd, IMO.
> >
> > i agree completely
> >
> > better yet why dont we find or invent & then use adequate words in
>the first
> > place
> >
> > i think we will understand each other better if we do
> >
> > m
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>--
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>[This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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