>From: "bjbutlerus" <bjbutler@...>
>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: new online legal supplement to bus&ss
>discovered
>Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:41:30 -0000
>
>Regarding meanders, avulsions, etc. evidently I am not describing
>something clearly enough. It is actually the core of my argument so
>if it is not clear why erosion followed by avulsion would have changed
>the boundary, then something is wrong in my explanation. Let me try
>again and pardon me if this is all repetition. I propose the
>following:
>
>At the time the 9CE witness monument was set, the Bois de Sioux
>midchannel was 594 feet east of the monument, the exact course of
>the river at that time is not known except for that point.
ok i am following you so far
but please let me butt in here
because i was still operating from your earlier hypothesis
which began i thought correctly with the damn line of 1858
when there were neither nd nor sd but only plain dakota & minnesota
or in other words 33 years before this ndsd survey you are now beginning
with
which produced the 9ce measurement
so there is that question still hanging
but i believe the right starting questions should be
can we find & indeed has anyone ever found the 1858 bois de sioux damn line
& if so can we then follow or have they then followed the life of the bois
de sioux along the latitude of the 1891 witness monument through its
accretions from 1858 until its first avulsion whether natural or artificial
froze it somewhere
& can we find or have they found that point
for that could well be what the usgs topo quad is indicating for mnndsd
or it could also be what someone merely thought was true but really wasnt
& if that point cannot really be found
as i surmise
then we must begin from the starting point you are now working from
but i believe some of the difficulty is that our hypotheses have been
meandering about as much as the river
so let me wait for your confirmation or clarifications on these points above
before i proceed with the rest of your explanation below
for i have again run out of time
thanx
m
>Over the next 100 years or so meandering occurred. This starts as a
>shallow bend in the river. Waterflow is strongest on the outside
>bank of the curve. It is called the "cut bank" because erosion
>occurs most rapidly here. Waterflow is slowest on the inside bank
>and sediment accumulates here. The process is self-magnifying and
>eventually results in a very distended meander shaped like Kentucky
>Bend. I hypothesize that the river had meandered into a configuration
>consistent with the USGS map at the time that map was made.
>
>Leveeing often involves straightening to increase flow and reduce
>lateral erosion, so I am guessing the river was straightened by
>cutting off the meander. I believe this falls into the category of a
>man-made avulsion. This activity, therefore, would not have changed
>the boundary. The boundary would have been stranded at the apex of
>the meander.
>
>Since the area adjacent to the river is good bottom land, it seems
>likely that the old riverbed would have been graded flat to accomodate
>farm equipment.
>
>But this is all speculation and will require additional data from the
>USACE to verify.
>
>BJB
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "m donner" <maxivan82@h...> wrote:
> > key largo fl
> >
> > thanx brian
> > & more below
> >
> > >From: "bjbutlerus" I have sent a fairly detailed request to the US
>Army
> > >Corps of
> > >Engineers in the MN-ND-SD district in an attempt to locate some
> > >engineering plans for the Bois de Sioux project that possibly
>changed
> > >the course of the river.
> >
> > great
> > this is world class punctology
> > which btw is what i think bp is about at its best
> >
> > If available this map might show the
> > >riverbed just prior to the "avulsion".
> >
> > yes
> > it might be available
> > & it might show their avulsion
> > if indeed they made one
> > for they might also have simply been reinforcing the existing or
>dominant
> > bed here while backfilling any potential competition from all lesser
> > channels or relict beds
> >
> > it does at least seem from my own recollection of the site as well
>as from
> > the usgs depiction at topozone 25k scale that the old river bed
>usgs places
> > mnndsd in today no longer exists
> > compliments probably of usace
> >
> > Since meanders become more
> > >acute until they finally break through and form a horseshow lake,
>the
> > >position of the river mid-channel along the current ND-SD line just
> > >prior to the avulsion would be the tri-point according to legal
> > >principles we have discussed here.
> >
> > i agree with your premise & probably your conclusion too
> > but dont see how the one follows the other
> > yet perhaps no matter
> > but i am running out of time at this computer
> > so i will have to continue later
> > but please respond or add in if you like
> >
> > m
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately I have not even
> > >received a confirmation that the USACE received my message and it
>has
> > >been a couple of days.
> > >
> > >BJB
> > >
> > >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "acroorca2002" <orc@o...> wrote:
> > > > thanxx to your several recent theories & other new info
> > > > i have substantially revised my own mnndsd guess
> > > >
> > > > in fact much of my 1858 to 2002 chronology guess is now
>smithereens
> > > > tho its basic idea of benign neglect & sublime ignorance is
> > >unchanged
> > > >
> > > > & i no longer agree with my former opinion that it isnt worth
> > >talking
> > > > about without proof
> > > > for that was a folly anyway
> > > >
> > > > it is always worth talking if it feels good
> > > >
> > > > m
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "m donner" <maxivan82@h...> wrote:
> > > > > truth
> > > > > good luck
> > > > > m
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "bjbutlerus" <bjbutler@b...>
> > > > > >Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > > > > >To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > > > > >Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: new online legal supplement to
> > >bus&ss
> > > > > >discovered
> > > > > >Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:03:48 -0000
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Truce. I will try to get the proof.
> > > > > >BJB
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "m donner" <maxivan82@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: "bjbutlerus"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Sorry if I made you feel insecure.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & silly of me not to understand why you think in these
>terms
> > > > > > > for i would rather be silly than sorry insecure etc
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & it is of course ones own thought that primarily makes
>one
> > >feel
> > > > > > > not anothers
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > m
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & you are the accredited geologist here
> > > > > > > so i am listening to you closely about all that loam
> > > > > > > for i am only a punctologist
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but yes please do give me the proof
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The facts from BUS&SS that you mention are the very
>ones I
> > >am
> > > > using in
> > > > > > > >my hypothesis. We have a difference of opinion as to
> > >whether
> > > > the Bois
> > > > > > > >de Sioux could produce a meander of approximately 450
>feet
> > > > over the
> > > > > > > >course of 110 years (or less, depending when the river
>was
> > > > > > > >channelized). The soil in that area is loamy and not
> > > > particularly
> > > > > > > >resistant, so I think a meander of that size would be
>quite
> > > > possible.
> > > > > > > >Further evidence is provided by the other meanders north
>and
> > > > south of
> > > > > > > >the one in question. The pattern is unmistakably that
>of a
> > > > meandering
> > > > > > > >river.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >But are right about needing further information to reach a
> > > > conclusion.
> > > > > > > > I am trying to get some details about where the river
> > >flowed
> > > > just
> > > > > > > >prior to being straightened.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >BJB
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "m donner" <maxivan82@h...>
>wrote:
> > > > > > > > > brian
> > > > > > > > > i know you have offered this opinion before
> > > > > > > > > nor did i disagree out loud a second time by offering
> > >these
> > > > new
> > > > > >sources
> > > > > > > > > because you already heard me once
> > > > > > > > > so this time i will only note 2 facts from bus&ss p4f
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > > > when bed & channel are changed by the natural &
>gradual
> > > > processes
> > > > > > > >known as
> > > > > > > > > erosion & accretion the boundary follows the varying
> > >course
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > >stream
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > > if the stream from any cause natural or artificial
> > >suddenly
> > > > leaves
> > > > > > > >its old
> > > > > > > > > bed & forms a new one
> > > > > > > > > by the process known as avulsion
> > > > > > > > > the resulting change of channel works no change of
> > >boundary
> > > > > > > > > which remains in the middle of the old channel tho no
> > >water
> > > > may be
> > > > > > > >flowing
> > > > > > > > > in it
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > now i believe a stream of this small size couldnt
> > >possibly
> > > > have
> > > > > > > >accreted
> > > > > > > > > anywhere near so much as you believe it has
> > > > > > > > > namely several times its own width
> > > > > > > > > even in these 11 decades
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > if streams could routinely sneak around that way they
> > > > wouldnt make
> > > > > > > >very good
> > > > > > > > > boundaries
> > > > > > > > > & accretion would be a terrible problem
> > > > > > > > > which it generally isnt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > yet somehow usgs has gotten the idea that mnndsd has
> > >moved
> > > > > > > > > & this cant be entirely ignored or poopooed until we
>know
> > > > for sure
> > > > > > > >why they
> > > > > > > > > think this
> > > > > > > > > but in the meantime i think they probably mistook an
> > > > avulsion or
> > > > > > > >work of man
> > > > > > > > > for an accretion
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > except for only the very minor inching of accretions
> > > > > > > > > only a supreme court decision or act of congress could
> > > > actually make
> > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > tripoint move
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > so i continue to think mnndsd will be found basically
> > > > unmoved
> > > > > > > > > & moreover since the witness rock pinpoints it
> > > > > > > > > this tripoint might be uniquely empowered to withstand
> > >even
> > > > > >accretion
> > > > > > > > > & thus remain absolutly unmoved even despite accretion
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in any case it will be interesting to see how far the
>9
> > > > chains fall
> > > > > > > >from the
> > > > > > > > > thalweg today
> > > > > > > > > & then we can see what there is to argue about
> > > > > > > > > probably very little
> > > > > > > > > because tho i myself reached & identified this usgs
> > >mnndsd
> > > > position
> > > > > > > >first i
> > > > > > > > > still just cant see it as even being worth talking
>about
> > > > > > > > > unless substantiated by something real
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > m
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >From: "bjbutlerus" <bjbutler@b...>
> > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > > > > > > > > >To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > > > > > > > > >Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: new online legal
>supplement
> > > > to bus&ss
> > > > > > > > > >discovered
> > > > > > > > > >Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:31:31 -0000
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Except, of course, for the unratified means of
>erosiion
> > >and
> > > > > > > > > >accretion. I still like the hypothesis that MNNDSD
> > >moved
> > > > gradually
> > > > > > > > > >from the point 9 chains east of the nearby witness
> > > > monument to the
> > > > > > > > > >position shown on the topo map (or thereabouts) and
>was
> > > > then frozen
> > > > > > > > > >at that position by the man-made avulsion of
> > >straightening
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >leveeing the river. A possible discrepancy would
>occur
> > >if
> > > > the topo
> > > > > > > > > >map was not made at the time the river was
>rechanneled
> > >(a
> > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > >discrepancy). We really need to see the maps that
>were
> > > > used during
> > > > > > > > > >the construction project. Also, this hypothesis
>leads
> > >to
> > > > an
> > > > > >infinite
> > > > > > > > > >number of paleoMNNDSD points along the 9-chain line
> > > > segment east of
> > > > > > > > > >the witness monument.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >BJB
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > if you are searching for a particular topic such
>as
> > > > mnndsd for
> > > > > > > > > >example then
> > > > > > > > > > > you can simply scan the list & see that the
>court at
> > > > least has
> > > > > > > > > >never ruled
> > > > > > > > > > > on any of the 3 interstate boundaries that
>terminate
> > > > there at
> > > > > > > > > >mnndsd
> > > > > > > > > > > & thus can conclude that if any change has
>occurred
> > >in
> > > > the
> > > > > >mnndsd
> > > > > > > > > >position
> > > > > > > > > > > since its creation it would have had to have been
> > > > approved
> > > > > >by the
> > > > > > > > > >only other
> > > > > > > > > > > possible means of ratification
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > >
>_________________________________________________________________
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