From: "ps1966nl" <
smaardijk@...>
>Subject: Re: Neuwerk -> internal waters at sea
>
>Looking at a Dutch topo map, one can see municipal and provincial
>boundaries drawn in the Wadden Sea. I think the Wadden Sea can be
>considered internal waters.
>
>Looking at these same maps, however, one can see a provincial
>boundary at some distance from the (North Sea, this time) coast.
>Inside boundary, the sea belongs to the respective coastal
>municipalities. How the situation is outside of this provincial
>boundary, I honestly don't know.
me neither but without a map in view this situation smacks of the
topological model we have already met in the usa & oz where there is a
typically 3nm band of state territorial waters along the coast or baselines
within the 12nm band of national territorial sea so this might be a partial
allocation of the dutch territorial sea to its provinces not in terms of
3nm here at all necessarily but somehow
>It seems unlikely to me that the
>provincial boundary is the baseline here.
i agree entirely unlikely
>It is also strange that
>this boundary doesn't follow the coastline closely, but is made up of
>straight segments between certain turning points, that often coincide
>with specific points in the Dutch topo grid. The distance between
>this boundary and the coast is variable. Sometimes it is just 1 km to
>the coastline, but sometimes as much as 3 km. At the west of
>Walcheren, Zealand province, there is even a very strange "detour" of
>this border, where Flushing (Vlissingen) municipality gets an area up
>to more than 6 km from the coast (the part between Westkapelle and
>Domburg, which doesn't even belong to Flushing), as well as the
>entire Westerschelde estuary, right up to the Zealandic-Flemish coast
>(municipalities of Oostburg and Sluis-Aardenburg).
clearly all the result of some careful negotiation or other intensive
application of government but apparently still just the topologic
equivalent of the usa or oz state limits tho again i am way out on a limb
without seeing the map
but heck thats where the fruit is right
>(BTW I don't know whether this is still the case after another round
>of municipalities merging a couple of years ago. My map dates from
>before that)
>
>So my question is: can we consider the strip of North Sea in between
>the coast and the provincial boundary to be internal waters?
since you seem to have indicated that the provincial maritime territory
extends everywhere seaward of the coast & have given no hint of islands
seaward of the provincial limit i would guess that the provincial north sea
seas are outside the baseline & therefore within the dutch national
territorial sea & therefore not internal waters
>Is the
>Dutch 12 nm territorial water zone counted from this boundary (which
>I think is unlikely),
agreed
>or from a baseline which is at the low tide
>coast line?
but of course unless you are concealing some islands or deep bays etc from me
>In that case, the belt of Dutch territorial waters is
>narrower than the 12 nm.
but wait because i really really think i absolutely followed you up to this
point yet now i think i have completely lost you & this would be staggering
news anyway if true i mean your conclusion may be correct & is certainly
exciting but could you say again how you got there
m
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "acroorca2002" <orc@o...> wrote:
>> --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Harry has perhaps been wondering since
>july 3339
>>
>>
>>
>> > For everybody's correct understanding:
>>
>> > The Wadden Sea is a tidal sea. At low tide it is even possible to
>walk from
>>
>> > the coast to, in this case, the Island Neuwerk and also to
>Scharhorn. One
>>
>> > only has to cross some channels/gully's.
>>
>> > Also horse and carts drive over the (dry) sea-floor. Deutsche Post
>>
>> > transports the mail on a daily bases in this way.
>>
>> > This also means that the coastline is defined as being at normal
>mean tide.
>>
>>
>>
>> mean low tide is normally what defines it so i gather that is what
>you mean here also
>>
>>
>>
>> > I don't know if the Wadden Sea is therefore not yet belonging to
>the
>>
>> > territorial waters??
>>
>>
>>
>> the fact that it is a tidal sea or basin makes it seem to fit the
>usual definition of internal waters & therefore not to be external
>enough to be considered territorial sea
>>
>> for the territorial sea normally extends only outward 12nm from the
>baselines that connect the outermost points on the coast at low tide
>>
>> but internal waters tho not usually called territorial waters are
>in fact more territorial & sovereign than territorial seas since they
>are generally more enclosed than territorial seas & also since the
>right of innocent passage by foreigners isnt guaranteed upon them
>>
>> m