Sahlins (1979) Boundaries: the making of France and Spain in the Pyreneees"
covers the history of the Cerdagne, and thus Llivia, but he does not mention
the Lake in the index, although there are references to various disputes
between communes over timber rights in forests and pasturage rights.
The Llivia boundary followed the ancient commune boundary. So it excised a
single commune from the Cerdagne and left it Spanish while the surrounding
communes went to France in 1660.
The problem was the comlicated communal and common rights over mountain
pastures, forests, lakes etc. These rights were retained, so that the
Fra-Spa boundary did not become an iron curtian, but only demonstrated
politicval allegiance and the extent of juridicial power fomr Paris and
Madrid.
Llivia was not isolated inside France because of its long-held rights in
other sections of the region.
One outcome of the 1660 treaty was that intercommunal petty disputes over
timbner and pasturage rights could now be appealed to the naitonal capitals,
with the potential to turn an argument between mayors over how many sticks
each could gather per week in a forest, into an international crisis.
Luckily both countries never allowed things to get out of hand in this way.
Compare to Baarle, where a dispute over rent levels born out of a
conflict over ownership of an enclave ended up in the ICJ.
Of course, Baarle was less because it was a heated debate, but more a
sensible, if extreme, way of seeking neutral arbitration.
BW
>From: <marcelmiquel@...>
>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>To: Boundary Point <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Another one?
>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 18:17:30 +0200
>
>Hello,
>
>Brendan is right, but there are not usufruct rights, this forests are
>owned by Llivia since XIII century. Curiously, last week I found in a
>bookstore this old book about Ll�via, published on 1976:
>
>Ricardo Ruiz del Castillo y de Navascu�s : �Llivia ( enclave espa�ol en
>Francia )�. Imprenta del Servicio Geogr�fico del Ej�rcito, Madrid,
>1976.
>
> It�s a history of Ll�via, but the most interesting contents are two
>maps: a 1:50.000 map shows this �second enclave�, larger than the
>Llivia�s territory. There is a large explanation about the rights over
>this two zones: Baix Carlit and Bac de Ll�via, owned by the town of
>Ll�via, but under french soveregnty. Next weekend i will be able to
>scan this map and i will post it.
>
> This book contents another great ortopictomap of Ll�via 1:15.000 made
>by the spanish army cartographic services. The boundary markers
>location is showed.
>
>
>
>Marcel
>
>
>
> >From: "Brendan Whyte" <brwhyte@h...>
> >Date: Mon Oct 1, 2001 12:51 am
> >Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Another one?
>
> >This lake is 2km long, 1km wide, and 8km north of Llivia, on the
>eastern
> >side of Mt Carlit, on which there is much jointly owned land, used for
> >transhumance.
><There is no second enclave, just joint usufruct rights.
> >BW
>
>
> >From: "Jan Krogh" <jakro64@y...>
> >Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Another one?
> >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:25:40 +0200
> >
> >"Am rechten Ufer des in Frankreich liegenden Lac des Bouilleuses
>geh�rt der
> >katalanischen Gemeinde ein Gebiet von knapp 1200 Hektar, auf dem sie
> >landwirtschaftliche Nutzungsrechte besitzt. Zwei Feldwege verbinden
>diese
> >zweite Enklave mit Ll�via."
> >
> >If understood correctly, it is saying that Llivia has right to use a
>1200
> >ha. area in on the right bank of Lac des Bouilleuses in France,
>belonging
> >to
> >the Catalonian 'parish' [or area]. The article does not directly say
>that
> >this is Spanish territory, but on the other hand it says "Two tracks
>are
> >connecting this second enclave with Llivia."
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
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