Subject: SV: [BoundaryPoint] Re: EGLYSD class b
Date: Jan 05, 2006 @ 18:19
Author: Jesper Nielsen ("Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@...>)
Prev Post in Topic Next [All Posts]
Prev Post in Time Next
Could this be EGSD demarcation?
http://www.confluence.org/photo.php?visitid=11575&pic=ALL
Who reads Arabic? Isn’t the left symbol five-something?
Jesper
Fra:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aletheiak
Sendt: 5. januar 2006 07:56
Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [BoundaryPoint] Re: EGLYSD
class b
& a very sweet dream
indeed as well as a brilliant analysis & synthesis dear doctor
but off the top of my head
egsd even in the wadi halfa nile salient was last
reported totally undemarcated as of 1962
per ibs
so your valiantly won trilaterality & tridatum
intersection appears to evaporate in the
desert
but hardy & steady as she blows matey for we
are whaling in mirage country here
& something seems to be turning up
yes
per the other ibs
egly has its mediterranean border base at a place
called beacon point
no relation
& was reportedly marked by beacons
206 miles inland from
there
& this strange note with perhaps a new clue
on 15dec1937 a commission met & arranged to
move some of the boundary pillars
westward in order to improve intervisibility &
to delimit the boundary as a series of
straight lines between beacons instead of the
previous line which followed the tracks
between the beacons
& 9 extra beacons were erected at this time
bringing the total to 187
& this whole chain of permanent beacons was
reported satisfactorily completed in a proces
verbale dated 3may1938
which
could well tell us or lead us to the egly datum
if we ever did find an egsd datum
for completing the still elusive intersection
& triangulation you propose
also & stranger
a whole fresh chain of border arcs
mike kaufman & i missed
in our crazy arc census is
built into egly tho not quite nakedly visible in
here
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/bs61.html
but thats just for titillation & profits us
nothing
&
aha
but here in the lysd ibs your point &
synthesis are finally made in earnest
still hypothetically of course but its a warm lead
for it indicates
23 or
24 miles south of eglysd
lysd appears to be demarcated by 12 boundary
beacons
however no info available on their type or
condition
funny way to put it & unusual circumstance too
but it points toward a lost treaty text & in
it perhaps a lost lysd datum
which
when combined with our more hopefully found egly
datum
completes your proposed trilateral datum cross
artifice by the back door
of course we still have to track down the one
ordinary egly & this other mystery lysd treaty
but its a way to proceed
superchallenging as it may seem
but something better to pursue in daylight i would
think
so keep on dreamin
--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell
G. McManus" <lgm@w...> wrote:
>
> While the EGLYSD tripoint has almost
certainly never been surveyed according to
> any datum whatsoever, it seems likely that
other segments of the EGLY meridional
> boundary (farther north) and of EGSD (in the
vicinity of the Nile Valley) have
> been surveyed and demarcated. Shouldn't
the same datum that was used in those
> surveys be applied along the whole length of
the respective meridian and
> parallel, since it has already been accepted
by the parties?
>
> I am reminded that it was the ancient Egyptians
who invented surveying to
> reestablish cadastral boundaries when the
annual Nile floods erased landmarks.
>
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "aletheia kallos"
<aletheiak@y...>
> To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:51 PM
> Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Re: EGLYSD class
b
>
>
> > nice stuff thanx
> > & please look for quite a few
inserts ahead
> >
> > --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@o...> wrote:
> >
> >> >>thus as likely wgs84 as
any<<
> >>
> >> definitely won't be WGS84 since that
was not in use
> >> until 1984 (hence the
> >> "84" in its name).
> >
> > hahaha you certainly may disallow me
& i knew dat
> > about 84
> > but i dont infer wgs84 should be ruled out
for that
> > reason
> >
> > on the contrary i think the relative
newness &
> > universality of wgs84 may especially
recommend &
> > automatically promote it in this special
case
> >
> > for diametrically unlike the maritime
borders of
> > indonesia
> > where technical & legal
complications create a
> > particular urgency to get all these
datums clarified
> > the situation at eglysd smacks of
complete
> > indifference & utter neglect over
many decades
> >
> > & so i reason in the apparent
absence of any evidence
> > of a specified datum for this point
since its creation
> > in 1925 til the present
> > that it either remains unspecified until
today & thus
> > highly subject to the wgs84 default
principle
> > or else that any specificity it may have
acquired
> > would most likely have occurred post
1984 & would thus
> > very likely be in the form of wgs84 for
that reason as
> > well
> >
> > also where so many as 3 parties are
involved universal
> > norms tend to be preferred to local ones
> >
> > your indonesia text says flat out
> > for its own special case but with
universal
> > applicability in this case
> > wgs84 seems to be most sensible to adopt
> > &
> > all decisions should be legally agreed
by all
> > countries involved
> >
> >> I suspect that the Egypt 1907 Datum
might have been
> >> used
> >
> > but what in particular leads you to
guess egypt 1907
> >
> > i can imagine egypt & sudan adopting
it but not so
> > readily libya
> >
> >> - but see
> >>
> > <http://www.fig.net/pub/cairo/papers/ts_45/ts45_01_abidin_etal.pdf>
> >>
> > http://www.fig.net/pub/cairo/papers/ts_45/ts45_01_abidin_etal.pdf
> >> where it
> >> notes, using Indonesian maritime
boundaries as its
> >> focus, that often the
> >> datum is NOT specifically denoted in
a relevant
> >> treaty
> >
> > exactly my point as well as my guess
here at eglysd
> > since day
1 in 1925 & even up to the
present
> >
> >> and discusses the
> >> issues that arise as a result.
> >
> > yes naturally many in the worlds busiest
seas but none
> > in the worlds most desolate wasteland
> >
> >> If you don't have
> >> time to read the whole
> >> paper
> >
> > who me
> > i have all the time in the world for
such
> > deliciousness
> >
> >> the following section from the
summary can
> >> help to understand the
> >> thesis:
> >>
> >> "The uncertainty in geodetic
datum of boundary
> >> points introduces
> >> complications and problems
> >> in spatial management of Indonesia's
maritime
> >> boundaries, since it can
> >> displace the boundary
> >> lines from their assumed true location.
The
> >> displacements of boundaries in
> >> WGS84 datum are
> >> generally in the order of a few
hundred meters, i.e.
> >> about 200 to
400 m ,
> >
> > indeed did you notice 420m was the max
they cited
> > later in the article
> >
> > sounds like your datum shift demo wants
to take place
> > in the indonesian jungles
> >
> >> depending on the
> >> assumed original geodetic datum of
the boundaries
> >> stated in the treaties.
> >> These boundary
> >> displacements are spatially
advantageous for
> >> Indonesia in some cases and
> >> also
> >> disadvantageous in others."
> >
> > i also appreciated & hope you did
too the specific
> > reference in this article to the
attainment of
> > submeter level accuracy in pilotage by
ecdis dgps in
> > 2004
> > which nicely fills in a blank space in
our earlier
> > discussion here
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18568
> >
> > end inserts
> > & sweet dreams
> >
> >
> >> The following paper might be
relevant to EGLYSD -
> >>
> > http://www.asprs.org/resources/grids/06-2003-kenya.pdf
> >> - although it
> >> primarily refers to Kenya it also
mentions the use
> >> of various datums in
> >> Egypt and the Sudan.
> >>
> >> Googling "latitude longitude
datum egypt" will
> >> provide a host of other links
> >> too numerous to reproduce here that
will provide a
> >> wealth of additional
> >> information.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >> From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >>
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> >> On Behalf Of aletheiak
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006
8:33 PM
> >> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: EGLYSD
class b
> >>
> >>
> >> there is no mention in any of the
relevant ibs
> >> numbers that the 1925 italian
> >> egyptian
> >> agreement establishing this tripoint
or the 1934
> >> italo british egyptian
> >> agreement
> >> reaffirming it included any official
maps or even
> >> specified any official
> >> datum or datums
> >>
> >> various british french american
& north african maps
> >> of the 1930s thru 1960s
> >> tho are said
> >> there to reliably depict the various
borders
> >> convergent here at eglysd
> >>
> >> & one cant conclude the datum is
elusive for it
> >> might well just be the
> >> common &
> >> nonelusive default datum of
> >> none specified
> >> & thus as likely wgs84 as any
> >> in which case the try or rather the
result would
> >> indeed be a very loose
> >> class b
> >> as represented by the little man in
the gully in the
> >> first pic
> >> or more likely a tight class c at
probably 14 meter
> >> range
> >> but if this is not correct
> >> then there remains some possibility
of a class d or
> >> even class e
> >>
> >> for there also remains an outside
chance that the
> >> tripoint is in fact marked
> >> whether by an official durable
marker
> >> since some other parts of these
remote borders are
> >> so marked
> >> or even by just some little cairn or
something these
> >> folks could have missed
> >> since there is also no evidence that
they were
> >> really studying the border
> >> alignments or
> >> trying for the tripoint in any other
way than just
> >> for the lat long
> >> intersection
> >>
> >> --- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
> >> <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > wow
> >> > nicely done
> >> > & a pleasure to see the
shots back on goal & the
> >> discussion back on target
> >> again
> >> >
> >> > & since all 3 ibs numbers
> >> > 10 & 18 & 61
> >> > join brownlie in indicating
this tripoint is
> >> unmarked
> >> > or at least was unmarked as
recently as 1979
> >> > it is hard to argue with the
bona fides of their
> >> perfect gps readings
> >> > no matter what datum they may
have been using
> >> >
> >> > but since even they are only
claiming 14 meter
> >> range at best
> >> > & were having difficulty
getting it
> >> > i think i would credit them
only with a class c
> >> > as in seeing the objective for
certain with their
> >> eyes
> >> > somehow
> >> > at some point
> >> > in their overall visitation
process
> >> > rather than a class b
> >> > as in necessarily having been
at the exact spot
> >> with their bodies
> >> > for i think that honor would
remain to be won
> >> > in this unusual circumstance
> >> > by someone with a better
quality gps receiver
> >> >
> >> > --- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper
> >> Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks to the unknown
visitor to Borderbase, who
> >> submitted the entry
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=22
> >> > > <http://www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=22
> >>
> > <http://www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=22&lon=25>
> >> &lon=25> &lon=25
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Jesper
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > >
> >> > > Borderbase - your online
guide to international
> >> borders and tripoints
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.nicolette.dk/borderbase
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> * Visit your group
"BoundaryPoint
> >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint>
" on
> >> the web.
> >>
> >>
> >> * To unsubscribe from this group,
send an email to:
> >>
BoundaryPoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >
<mailto:BoundaryPoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
subject to the
> >> Yahoo! Terms of Service
> >>
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________
> > Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home
about.
> > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> > dsl.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>