Subject: yikes could njpa be a condo & thus njnypa & denjpa trilines rather than tripoints<br/>
Date: Dec 27, 2005 @ 07:01<br/>
Author: aletheia kallos (aletheia kallos &lt;aletheiak@...&gt;)<br/>
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<br/><br/>
<div id="ygrps-yiv-1694038512">you may recall spooky mikes recent revisit to njnypa &<br/>
his illustrated question about it<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18068">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18068</a><br/>
which precipitated this also illustrated advancement<br/>
in the state of play there<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7397">http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7397</a><br/>
but left us with these messy questions<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7399">http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7399</a><br/>
& finally led to this new hypothesis for a revised<br/>
trifinial diagram<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7402">http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7402</a><br/>
<br/>
well i didnt realize it at the time<br/>
but have just noticed that simply by shifting at<br/>
topozone from the 24k scale 1981 topo to the 100k<br/>
scale 1986 topo of the same location<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4578304&e=525499&s=50&size=s&datum=nad83&layer=DRG100">http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4578304&e=525499&s=50&size=s&datum=nad83&layer=DRG100</a><br/>
there is already confirmation that the usgs must have<br/>
soon realized its own mistake <br/>
& the correction here shows nypa proceeding due west<br/>
from the njnypa tristates monument<br/>
<br/>
& thats very gratifying already because it confirms<br/>
that new york does indeed occupy the full 209 degree<br/>
slice of the pie that was hypothesized there rather<br/>
than only the 180 degrees of it shown on both the tri<br/>
states rock diagram & the 24k topo<br/>
<br/>
& here on book page 522 aka pdf page 31<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf">http://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf</a><br/>
or<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1j59s4Dl81QJ:www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf+%22delaware+river%22+%22concurrent+jurisdiction%22+%22new+jersey%22+pennsylvania&hl=en&client=safari">http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1j59s4Dl81QJ:www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf+%22delaware+river%22+%22concurrent+jurisdiction%22+%22new+jersey%22+pennsylvania&hl=en&client=safari</a><br/>
is further confirmation that nypa proceeds due west<br/>
from the njnypa tri states monument<br/>
to the center of the main channel of the river<br/>
or in other words exactly as stated on the nearby 1882<br/>
nypa witness marker<br/>
rather than wnw as depicted by the trifinial diagram<br/>
upon it<br/>
<br/>
but it is also noteworthy that this text provides<br/>
besides the specs of the nypa alignment within the<br/>
river from nj to pane<br/>
the proviso of concurrent nypa jurisdiction everywhere<br/>
between the banks<br/>
<br/>
& that in itself is not really a territorial<br/>
condominium <br/>
nor is it even a very unusual policing arrangement on<br/>
border rivers<br/>
tho it has its problems<br/>
as mentioned here about halfway down the page<br/>
following footnote 602 in the text<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.constitution.org/cmt/stimson/con_crim.htm">http://www.constitution.org/cmt/stimson/con_crim.htm</a><br/>
where the concurrent njpa jurisdiction established in<br/>
1783 is coincidentally cited as an example<br/>
<br/>
which got me to thinking further<br/>
or rather jogged my memory back to text of that<br/>
agreement as cited in bus&ss<br/>
which says <br/>
in digest<br/>
the delaware river <br/>
from the nw corner of nj down to the place where the<br/>
circular boundary of delaware touches it<br/>
is a common highway equally free & open for the use<br/>
benefit & advantage of both nj & pa<br/>
&<br/>
each state shall enjoy & exercise a concurrent<br/>
jurisdiction within & upon the water<br/>
tho not upon the islands<br/>
all of which are assigned by name to the nearer state<br/>
per the text & a 1786 addendum<br/>
<br/>
but that is evidently all she ever really wrote <br/>
for njpa<br/>
<br/>
yep thats right<br/>
concurrent jurisdiction just like that described above<br/>
for the nypa sector of the delaware<br/>
except it seems <br/>
no njpa state line was ever specified within the river<br/>
in this case as the nypa state line later was <br/>
<br/>
& looking for subsequent njpa agreements that could<br/>
have clarified or added such a delineation<br/>
i find none<br/>
tho it may be telling that there is a 1934 joint njpa<br/>
toll bridge commission<br/>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://ssl.csg.org/compactlaws/delawareriverjointollbridge.html">http://ssl.csg.org/compactlaws/delawareriverjointollbridge.html</a><br/>
which doesnt mention any state line within the river<br/>
but resorts to weird circumlocutions like<br/>
the bucks phila county line in pennsylvania as<br/>
extended across the river to the nj shore<br/>
<br/>
but the question then arises<br/>
if there is no real njpa delineation other than the<br/>
river as a whole between ny & de<br/>
then what to make of the njpa state line depicted<br/>
within the river by usgs maping<br/>
<br/>
like where did that even come from<br/>
<br/>
& i cant answer that question yet<br/>
<br/>
i did study the whole thing from njnypa to denjpa tho<br/>
on the 24k scale<br/>
& discovered a few things<br/>
<br/>
first <br/>
the usgs does get the distribution of all the islands<br/>
mentioned in the 1780s compacts all right<br/>
but then divides right down the middle various other<br/>
islands evidently not mentioned there<br/>
yet often diverges from the middle of the main channel<br/>
as if it might be following a thalweg <br/>
but then in other places is shown outside the<br/>
navigational channel entirely<br/>
nor is it ever indicated as being indefinite anywhere<br/>
but merely behaves uncertain & haphazard<br/>
& in one place it even crosses a peninsula jutting out<br/>
from the nj side<br/>
<br/>
in other words <br/>
overall <br/>
the alignment shown by the usgs doesnt inspire much<br/>
confidence <br/>
& i finally have to doubt if it is based on anything<br/>
real<br/>
& to wonder if it isnt just someones wild supposition<br/>
like the ignorant line we have seen down the middle of<br/>
the delu condo on some maps<br/>
<br/>
& so i think it entirely possible at this point that<br/>
njpa isnt a state line at all but a ribbon of condo<br/>
& thus that njnypa isnt at all as shown on either<br/>
scale of the usgs topos<br/>
but is rather actually a triline running due west from<br/>
the njnypa rock to the middle of the river<br/>
& likewise that denjpa isnt as shown either but is<br/>
really a triline running along the 12mile arc from<br/>
shore to shore at low tide<br/>
<br/>
yes a curved triline<br/>
<br/>
isnt that lovely<br/>
<br/>
more data needed of course<br/>
<br/>
so please help pin this down or bust it if you can<br/>
<br/>
but in the meantime it is very exciting to think we<br/>
may have a couple of tristate lines here<br/>
rather than the ordinary tristate points we had been<br/>
imagining<br/>
at the respective ends of what figures to be the only<br/>
territory in the usa that is legally in 2 states at<br/>
once <br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
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		<br/>
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