Thank you for the stimulation. Like always, we just need a kick in the ass.
Before even consulting the additional maps suggested, I agree giving more
credit to the "Plesten" tripoint alternative, for the following reasons:
Looking at the picture
http://www.ena.lu/europe/success%20crisis/iron%20curtain%20border%20point%20
three%20territories%201965.htm we have to imagine an arrangement of these
markers such that their engravings face the countries that they stand for.
This is only possible in a sensible way at the Plesten (Eastern) tripoint,
and it is impossible at the Western tripoint between Weitramsdorf and
Ummerstadt.
If we assume the picture is taken towards East, the central stone with the
GO then faces SW, right towards the Coburg portion of Sachse-Coburg. The
left stone with the presumed AL on it is placed in a 90-degree angle facing
NE, looking into the narrow "lobe/lappet/flap" of Sachse-Meiningen, and the
small stone to the right may look anywhere it likes as long as it is true
that it is "only" a marker of the next-best village. Such a setting would
not be possible at the Western tripoint, even if we twist our heads.
The hypothesis is "supported" by the fact that there is a country road going
from Plesten toward NE that touches the Bavaria/Thuringia border precisely
at the place where the pic may have been taken. Imagining somebody taking
border pictures in the Cold War this would only have been "safe" if you took
them either from a public road or out of the window of your car. Approaching
the border on foot from the West, across open fields, was thrilling if not
dangerous - again, the "easiest" pic-taking position for a journalist was NE
of Plesten. The Western tripoint is not accessible by car.
Additional support for the hypothesis is provided by the fact that you see
the border running through the background of the picture (the white poles),
nicely in conformance with my 1: 300,000 road map. Well, I also have maps 1
: 200,000, and quickly making looky-looky on those does not produce anything
in addition, nor to the contrary.
Unfortunately, these bloody markers and poles do not throw shadows
supporting the hypothesis.
Remains the mystery what the stone left in the picture wants to tell us. I
cannot find anything like AL in the Plesten area, nor can I find anything on
the Western tripoint. Apart from abbreviations such as "M" for Meiningen one
may expect on such stones the abbreviation for "Herzogtum" = H, so that "HM"
would make sense to me.
Now I did something that I better had not done: I consulted my
24-volume-strong Meyer's Conversation Lexicon for the "well-educated
classes", dated 1890. Over many pages all the nice, complex histories of
those duchies is displayed in all splendour.
In conclusion, I did not find any clue, only complete confusion. I learned
that Meiningen came to Altenburg in 1660, that there was a duchy of
Gotha-Altenburg from 1707 onwards, and that only in 1826 Sachsen-Meiningen
got the size that it has on the map
http://www.ieg-maps.uni-mainz.de/gif/71th_a4.htm . A duchy of
Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha exists only from 1826 onwards.
I did not find an explanation for the fact that border stones apparently
have been set in 1806, a time when Napoleon ruled and threw everything up in
the air. But it wouldn't come as a surprise to me anymore learning that in
1806 the Coburg part was Gotha and the Meiningen "bit" belonged to
Altenburg.
Finally I tried to attain the ultimate wisdom by searching for Plesten in
the www. Among the 850 or so hits I learned that Anna Margaretha Bauersachs,
descendent of people from Plesten in Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha died in Newark,
New Jersey, in 1906. Sorry, too late, otherwise we may have asked her.
I also learned that there was a "Freistaat Coburg" from November 1918 to
July 1, 1920, when the "Freistaat" Bavaria grabbed it, omiting a few
enclaves - something for our enclave freaks to delve in.
http://www.stadt.coburg.de/dokumente/a-331-staatsvertrag.pdf
THIS was the moment! - aha - and I had blamed the American army for adding
to the confusion!
We may have it easier if we simply ask the owner of the website where the
pic was taken.
Wolfgang
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von aletheia kallos
Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. November 2005 02:36
An:
boundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [BoundaryPoint] 1806 bavaria coburg meinengen tripoint now
looking like de2byth near plesten
wolfgang & or anyone else who is trying to get this
let me try to be clearer because i believe there has
been a breakthru now
please compare the 2 tricolor tripoints you have
selected due west & due east of coburg here
http://www.ieg-maps.uni-mainz.de/gif/71th_a4.htm
with the same locations on any modern map of the
bavaria thuringia state line
such as hopefully this one if it works or better
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/MapCenter/Map.aspx?TextLatitude=39.45
&TextLongitude=-98.907&TextAltitude=0&TextSelectedEntity=39070&SearchEnc=fal
se&MapStyle=Comprehensive&MapSize=Small&MapStyleSelectedIndex=0&searchTextMa
p=germany&MapStylesList=Comprehensive&ZoomOnMapClickCheck=on
but of course preferably use as fine a map as possible
& certainly with modern subdivisional entities & their
borders included if possible
since they could give just the final clues that are
needed to identify this as a living tripoint
if it still is one
now the bavaria thuringia border may not be entirely
the same as the coburg meinengen border
but these 2 bavaria coburg meinengen tripoints & their
vicinities dont look any different on both those
borders actually from 1848 to 2005
so far as i have been able to discern
& so
all else being equal
i agree
go either east or west from coburg
but in fact according to this 1812 map
http://www.ieg-maps.uni-mainz.de/gif/p812d_a3_mb.gif
only the tripoint to the east of coburg is looking
very likely to have been any kind of a bavaria
tripoint as early as 1806
this location btw appears to be at or very near a
place called plesten
with byth again hopefully indicated as a dashed line
here
http://multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=1243750&Y=6460000&width=7
00&height=400&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=mercator&db=DE&addr1=&addr2=&add
r3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&zm=0&in.x=6
&in.y=6&scale=50000
all too crudely of course
but thats the rough idea anyway
& this may well be virtually qed on jespers pic
if its caption is not mistaken
but happily the rock or rocks still remain to be found
& especially if you are looking to save gas
i would scour byth first just northeast of plesten
& thanx to all for trying in any case too
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