Subject: Re: SV: [BoundaryPoint] these could be the most telling & interesting 2 points
Date: Oct 07, 2005 @ 18:30
Author: aletheiak ("aletheiak" <aletheiak@...>)
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>i understand
> If the IBS paper did not confuse us from the start, we would all have been
> convinced BGGRTR was the marker we saw on the island.
> But after seeing the TR maps posted on www.geocities.com/jesniel on locationi perfectly understand
> - especially the first one we were convinced it was the tp. Also map # 4
> looks very new.
> The maps are very confusing to look at, and since we were unable to gethmm
> copies, but were allowed to photograph them, I decided to do that, and
> verify the evidence later at home and hold it against the IBS paper.
>
> We did not walk the vista, probably because our hosts were Turkish.
>
> But getting back to map #4. Old information stored in my memory has just
> surfaced. Before going to the island we were having tea at border HQ in
> Kapikule just north of the crossing few meters from BGTR. I asked to where
> bm 319 was (hoping for a photo), but was shown the unnumbered stone south of
> the road. http://www.nicolette.dk/borderbase/border.php?c1=21
> <http://www.nicolette.dk/borderbase/border.php?c1=21&c2=141> &c2=141 shows
> 1) this unnumbered stone, 2) the border crossing where the car has just
> entered BG , 3) looking N along BGTR at the same place. Asking the Turkish
> (evening after tp visit) why the stone was unnumbered the told us that this
> map and stone was unratified by BG. So if the map is not final, the missing
> marker 320Biz may not be final too. But don't you agree that the arrow on
> marker 1 at this map indicate a dry tp?
> We still have the contacts to the TRs including the map "owner", and wewell clearly we could use all the hard data we can manage to raise here
> should ask them. I have also long ago why before GSEEBE asked GR about
> documentation on their tps. But the Greeks are so secretive about this
> stuff, so they asked for a reason they should let me have it. I still
> haven't thought of a reason that would be worth gold.
> The next two weeks I will on the road for CHFRITMCSM, so I will wait toyes
> write these contacts till then.
>
> The last GR message on the tripoint was from the site of the GR minister of
> Macedonia, and so it should be pretty reliable information.
> Normally I don'tary+waters&w3=Boundary+waters&w4=Inca+trail&w5=Trail+of+painted+ponies&w6=Tr
> take news stories as 100% reliable information, because reporters often get
> things wrong.
>
>
>
> Jesper
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] På
> vegne af aletheiak
> Sendt: 7. oktober 2005 16:37
> Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: [BoundaryPoint] these could be the most telling & interesting 2 points
>
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@i...> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, some things are odd.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pro:
> >
> > Our monument is definitively a tripoint monument since it has the three
> > flags, but could still be symbolic
> >
> > The three flags are painted on trees on each side of countries territories
> > (http://www.vasa.abo.fi/users/rpalmber/BordersBGT.htm). Would BG allow
> > painting of GR flag on BG tree?
> >
> > GR & TR are not the best play mates, and so I am sure TR would not approve
> > GR flag if only BGTR marker
> >
> > Our TR hosts did not want to be photographed on GR side
> >
> >
> >
> > Cons:
> >
> > If No1 is the tp, why does BG put 320? (local ignorance?), see
> > http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/tp_mon.jpg, the photo is taken from GR by
> > the way (if true tp). The "320 BG" inscription was gone in May 2005.
> >
> > Monument does not look like an official marker
> >
> > Like on satellite photo, there is clear vista along what should be BGGR
> > (http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/bggrtr.jpg)
>
> yes
> the vista & all the maps are extremely persuasive
>
> but did you perhaps follow this vista to its western or upstream end
>
> for if true bggrtr is truly on the island
> then we might expect to find a bggr marker very near that spot
> & or across the river from there on the greek side
> where a prolongation of the vista line would strike it
>
> & one more insert below
>
> > When copying the maps showing "Iceland Kavak" on
> > http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/, the TR officials tried to tell us
> somehow
> > they were no good. I got the impression they meant not to scale, or
> > non-official maps or something like that
> >
> > We were shown the spot where GRTR enters the river.
>
> this spot where the 320 line continues south from kavak island feels
> especially hot
> & no matter for now whether it is truly grtr as you say or actually bgtr
> entering there
> for thats what we need to find out
>
> so can you say any more about this spot
>
> & especially about what you saw facing south from here
>
> end inserts
>
> > The photographed marker appeared to be 320CT. Then what happened to 320
> Biz
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesper
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> På
> > vegne af aletheiak
> > Sendt: 4. oktober 2005 00:57
> > Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented
> >
> >
> >
> > delicious
> > many thanxxx
> > & they give me a bright new idea
> > for regardless of the various map dates
> > they do all together reiterate & underscore the already well known fact
> > of the extreme shiftiness of all these islands
> >
> > which could singlehandedly explain how the tripoint got out of the river &
> > onto dry land
> >
> > that is
> > by pure avulsion
> >
> > & with no paperwork needed whatsoever
> >
> > except that
> > even in such a case
> > bgtr & grtr should still run in a continuous line downstream
> > following the middle of the former main channel in both cases
> > which was
> > according to their 1919 & 1923 treaties respectively
> > about 197 feet south of marker 1 on the south side of kavak group island a
> > which is the smaller island south of kavak proper
> > as some of your maps still rightly show
> >
> > indeed there is still precisely that turnpoint of bgtr showing there on
> > several of them
> > from off of the 320 monument line & into the mainstream
> > which is exactly where the treaties & the ibs writeups lead one to expect
> > the tripoint to be
> >
> > so i am not quite ready to cry eureka yet
> > but we may be stumbling onto something essential not previously understood
> > here
> >
> > if only we can somehow explain away this one remaining messy detail
> > namely
> > that the trifinium shown on all your maps is still not only a bit too far
> > north
> > but also at right angles to the orientation the treaties say it should
> have
> > per ibs numbers 41 aka grtr & 56 aka bggr
> >
> > it just led me to notice however that there is a small comment in ibs
> number
> > 49
> > aka bgtr
> > hinting that the tripoint could have been moved bilaterally by the grtr
> > demarcation
> > commission of 1926
> >
> > so any records that can be found of that party
> > may be the next if not the only remaining hope for further investigation &
> > elucidation
> >
> > heavy breathing & nearly celebration here
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
> wrote:
> > > http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maps are not dated, which could have been nice.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Last photo show a 320 which we passed on the causeway to Kavak.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jesper
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > På
> > > vegne af aletheiak
> > > Sendt: 3. oktober 2005 16:14
> > > Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Emne: Re: SV: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > yes please would love to eat em
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, jesniel@i... wrote:
> > > > I have various TR treaty maps of the tp that I can scan.
> > > > >-- Original Message --
> > > > >To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >From: "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...>
> > > > >Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:04:53 -0000
> > > > >Subject: Re: SV: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented
> > > > >Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > ><html><body>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <tt>
> > > > well ok but cshuro is marked by a ziggurat topped by an obeliskoid<BR>
> > > > whereas the new bggrtr monument<BR>
> > > > thanx to the partial pic youve found<BR>
> > > > is still looking almost perfectly pyramidal <BR>
> > > > so far <BR>
> > > > exactly as was
> > > > >reported<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > it looks like it should be great fun to climb tho too<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > but yikes what kind of advice were you asked for<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > what the marker should look like perhaps<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > or maybe where they should put it<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > &
> > > > > did you ask or learn how & when the tripoint ever managed to get up
> > out
> > > > of the river & <BR>
> > > > onto the island<BR>
> > > > from the position specified in the 1923 treaty of lausanne & ibs
> 41<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > for that is the bigger mystery<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > &
> > > > > this could still prove to be a chdefr style ceremonial monumentation
> > > <BR>
> > > > for a still legally wet tripoint<BR>
> > > > without anyone even realizing it<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > at least until we find the document that properly moved & dried it
> > out<BR>
> > > > <BR>
> > > > --- In B
> > > > >undaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
> wrote:<BR>
> > > > > My guess is CSHURO style.<BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > The IBRG team was asked for advice on the matter on site in May.<BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > &g
> > > > >; <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > Jesper<BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > _____ <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > > > På<BR>
> > > > > vegne af aletheia kallos<BR>
> > > > >
> > > > > Sendt: 3. oktober 2005 04:27<BR>
> > > > > Til: boundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> > > > > Emne: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented<BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <a
> > >
> href="http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/new-pyramid/id_11871/catid_5">http
> > > > >//www.sofiaecho.com/article/new-pyramid/id_11871/catid_5</a><BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > can anyone find a pic of this new marker<BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > ______________
> > > > >___________________ <BR>
> > > > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 <BR>
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> > > > > <BR>
> > > > > _____ <BR>
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> > > nies&w6=Trail+of+the+painted+ponies&c=6&s=139&.sig=xygW4O
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