Subject: Re: river condo authority joins denj follies
Date: Mar 17, 2005 @ 06:00
Author: aletheiak ("aletheiak" <aletheiak@...>)
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--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus"
<mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> King Charles II, not his brother the Duke, made Penn's original
Pennsylvania
> boundary "twelve miles distance Northwards of New Castle
Towne."
>
> When they did their 1682 deal, the Duke made Penn two
separate deeds of
> feoffment for the Delaware lands. I don't have the wording in
front of me now,
> but one included all land west of the left bank within the
twelve-mile circle,
> and the other included land west of the river from there
southward. The first
> of these deeds accounts for the fragment of the circle on DENJ
at the north end
> of Artificial Island.
>
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@r...>
> To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 5:13 PM
> Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Re: river condo authority joins
denj follies
>
>
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Lowell G. McManus [mailto:mcmanus71496@m...]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 4:02 PM
> >> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: river condo authority joins
denj
> >> follies
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Kevin Flynn asked:
> >>
> >> > What was the Duke of York's purpose, when conveying
the
> >> Three Lower Counties
> >> > (Delaware) to Penn, in insisting that Penn's Pennsylvania
> >> not come within a
> >> > 12-mile radius of New Castle? I never quite understood
the
> >> purpose since
> >> > Penn was to exercise authority over both. Were the
> >> inhabitants of what was
> >> > to become Delaware dela-wary (haha) of being ruled by
Quakers?
> >>
> >> In 1651, Peter Stuyvesant established Fort Casimir (now
New
> >> Castle) for the
> >> Dutch West India Company. In 1664, the Duke of York
received
> >> the lands lost by
> >> the Dutch, lying now in New York, New Jersey, and
Delaware.
> >> In 1681, Charles II
> >> granted Pennsylvania to William Penn, describing it such
that
> >> "twelve miles
> >> distance Northwards of New Castle Towne" would remain
in the
> >> possession of the
> >> Duke. In 1682, Penn, needing an outlet to the sea via the
> >> Delaware River,
> >> bargained with the Duke for the land now comprising
Delaware,
> >> which became the
> >> "Lower Counties" of Pennsylvania. The Delaware people,
> >> however, were indeed
> >> wary of Quaker rule, felt overshadowed by Philadelphia, and
> >> felt under-protected
> >> from both pirates and Lord Baltimore. In 1701, Penn
granted
> >> a charter for a
> >> separate government for the Lower Counties, and its
assembly
> >> first met in 1704
> >> to make its laws. The "Government of the counties of New
> >> Castle, Kent, and
> >> Sussex, upon Delaware" still reported to the Pennsylvania
> >> governor, but not to
> >> the Pennsylvania assembly. Only in 1776 did Delaware cut
the
> >> cord when its
> >> people adopted a revolutionary constitution for "Delaware
State."
> >>
> >> Lowell G. McManus
> >> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> >
> > Hmmmm. If the Duke established that Penn's boundary was
to be "twelve miles
> > distance Northwards of New Castle Towne," then what is the
basis for
> > broadening that DEPA line around in an arc to affect NJ at
all? The Duke
> > didn't also say "12 miles southward as well," did he? I do
recall reading
> > something once from the DE archives that extended DE
sovereignty to the left
> > bank or Jersey shoreline, but don't remember the logical
basis for it.


all interesting data
but the thrust of the question is still there & not yet answered

what is the basis
for extending the circle
all the way to the left bank

the basis is
the circle was stipulated in the 1682 upper delaware deed

& the 1664 deed for the tract of land that would become nj said
it hath upon the west delaware bay or river
as far as cape may

so because nj still didnt own any part of the delaware in 1682
there was no adverse claim & thus no reason not to extend the
circle as far as the left bank at low tide
tho it took until 1934 to completely settle & do this


but the idea that the circle could ever have continued onto the
natural left bank anywhere above the low water mark
if that is what you think you saw in the delaware archives
is clearly misguided because of the priority of the nj title to all that
dry land


also
i think the earlier question about the purpose of the legal
separation of de from pa by the deeds of 1681 & 1682 was not
really answered either


here again i believe it had a lot to do with priority

when penn got title to pa in 1681 it was still practically all virgin
wilderness

penns woods
aha
as distinct from penns adjacent but already well settled tract
& pish tush about competition from a still nonexistent
philadelphia
& likewise about pa needing an outlet to the sea

rather
30 years of prior occupancy & political development by dutch
swedish finnish french etc & english settlers had already made
de a very different sort of place than pa was at that time

but i believe the 12mile arc was calculated not so much to
separate de from pa
which it did only in 1701 when penn was forced to give delaware
its own government & actually have the arc surveyed
as it was calculated to keep de clear of the prior claim of md
which itself had been chartered & expanding since 1632
& was claiming all of de & pa as far as the mouth of the schuylkill

& tho the royal order to split the eastern shore equally between
de & md didnt come until 1685
& mason&dixon didnt come to do it til the 1760s
the fact that there was a potential triple overlap among md & de
& pa was on everyones minds almost from the arrival of penn

nor btw was any of it finally settled til m&d did all the work

so i think charles ii in the 1680s wasnt trying to keep pa separate
from de so intently as he was trying to keep de separate from md
& maybe also to limit the potential expansion of catholic md


& i realize that that too doesnt answer the question so much as it
sidesteps it
but i think it is correct to retire it in this way
rather than attributing the original conception of the 12mile arc
primarily to delawariness of quakerism
or supposing that anyone was insisting on separation of de from
pa at that early time

the insistence came in the form of a popular revolt that took 20
more years to happen
when the arc just happened to serve as the political fault line