oh ok
i didnt realize you actually understood it all
can you diagram the 3 non border arcs for me then
maybe that will show me why they are necessary
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kaufman
<mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> what mystery? the text is clear and not complicated.
>
>
> --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
>
> > thanx
> > this goes a long way toward solving the mystery i
> > think
> > for at least it clearly states the greater part of
> > it
> >
> > why are radial distances used at all here to
> > pinpoint the
> > locations of the border turns
> > if not for use in actual border circumference arcs
> > in places where simple linear distances would
> > suffice to
> > pinpoint them
> >
> > why this apparently needless complication &
> > confusion of terms
> >
> > & if there is no method to be found for such a
> > madness
> > then we are right to continue to suspect confusion
> > in the text
> >
> > & i realize this particular mystery does not apply
> > equally to all 3
> > mentions of the supposedly gratuitous circumferences
> > but perhaps only to 1 or 2 of them
> > yikes
> > so it looks like there could well be a fork in the
> > mystery too
> >
> > delicious enough to warrant a revisitation &
> > recitation of browlie
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > Kaufman
> > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > I think it's just a matter of practicality. The
> > > circles are used only in regards to specific
> > tangent
> > > lines. It is easier to do this since the circles
> > are
> > > centered in the "centers" of villages. It is
> > easier
> > > to talk about that than to try and describe a
> > point in
> > > the middle of nowhere that may be where the
> > tangent
> > > line touches the radius and a turnpoint may be.
> > >
> > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > right
> > > > & all as previously noticed & noted
> > > > but still no clear explanation of why the arcs
> > or
> > > > circumferences
> > > > which the border doesnt follow are even
> > mentioned in
> > > > the
> > > > alignments at all
> > > >
> > > > why such gratuitous geometrical figurations for
> > > > reference only
> > > > when it would have been far easier to make
> > reference
> > > > to some
> > > > physical object &or straight line distance
> > > > as they do everywhere else
> > > >
> > > > & we have just been calling arcs what they call
> > > > circumferences
> > > > so there are not really 2 different things
> > needing
> > > > distinction here
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > so unless i have misunderstood
> > > > you are simply restating the enigmatic texts
> > > > but not really resolving their mysteries
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > not that they absolutely need to be resolved tho
> > > >
> > > > the writers could have been just as confused as
> > they
> > > > seem to us
> > > >
> > > > & perhaps the only way to fully resolve the
> > > > confusion would be to
> > > > match all the marker positions with all the
> > > > alignments
> > > > & then see if we have anything left over
> > > > hahahahaha
> > > > but i am not suggesting we drive ourselves so
> > crazy
> > > > as that
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > Kaufman
> > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > 36. No since the border only runs on a tangent
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > circumference and then again a straight line
> > in
> > > > 37.
> > > > > It never runs along the circumference and
> > there is
> > > > no
> > > > > arc. The Grand Bete circle is used for
> > reference
> > > > to
> > > > > specify the turnpoint, and the border does not
> > run
> > > > > along this circle.
> > > > >
> > > > > 49. It just runs along the line that is
> > tangent to
> > > > the
> > > > > Lusi 3.5 km circle, but again does not ride an
> > arc
> > > > of
> > > > > the circle.
> > > > >
> > > > > 54. Just following the tangent from one circle
> > to
> > > > > another. AKA straight line segment between
> > two
> > > > arcs
> > > > > (53 and 55).
> > > > >
> > > > > 58. Just follows tangent from Kankali circle
> > to
> > > > > Gusin-Sura circle without riding an arc of
> > > > Gusin-Sura.
> > > > >
> > > > > 59. It follows the tangent from Gusin-Sura
> > circle
> > > > to
> > > > > Daku circle from point of intersection with
> > the
> > > > > tangent in 58 to the circumference of the Daku
> > > > circle
> > > > > (an arc of which it rides in 60).
> > > > >
> > > > > The 5 paragraphs are describing straight line
> > > > > segments. The three extra circles only serve
> > as
> > > > > references from which to draw straight lines.
> > So
> > > > we
> > > > > are still at 10 arcs: Under Alignment section
> > -
> > > > 26,
> > > > > 33, 35, 42, 44, 47, 53, 55, 57, 60.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > as mentioned
> > > > > > i couldnt be sure
> > > > > > & on closer examination i still cant
> > > > > > because the text occasionally varies its
> > > > formulaic
> > > > > > description of
> > > > > > the arcs from one example to the next
> > > > > > & evidently incorporates several geometric
> > > > > > conundrums as well
> > > > > >
> > > > > > what i can see is
> > > > > > there are in all 13 different arcs mentioned
> >
> > > > > > in a total of 15 different numbered
> > paragraphs
> > > > > > including your mentioned 10 paragraphs plus
> > 36
> > > > 49 54
> > > > > > 58 & 59
> > > > > >
> > > > > > which may or may not add to your count of 10
> > > > border
> > > > > > arcs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i agree there could be as few as 10 arcs
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > bjng border
> > > > > > actually follows
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but in any case
> > > > > > i dont see why they would even have been
> > > > mentioned
> > > > > > if the
> > > > > > border isnt supposed to follow them
> > > > > >
> > > > > > can you perhaps positively dispose of any or
> > all
> > > > 3
> > > > > > odd men out
> > > > > > from the mentioned 13
> > > > > >
> > > > > > just to keep track
> > > > > > we have in sequence the following 13
> > villages as
> > > > > > centers
> > > > > > with radii in km
> > > > > >
> > > > > > okuta 8 & a half
> > > > > > guri 4
> > > > > > yashikira 8
> > > > > > grand bete 4
> > > > > > kenumbe 4
> > > > > > besi 8
> > > > > > gauzhi 3 & a half
> > > > > > lusi 3 & a half
> > > > > > naganzi 4
> > > > > > kade 4
> > > > > > kankali 5
> > > > > > gusin sura 4
> > > > > > daku 5
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & about your map
> > > > > > i dont know what the mapmaker was doing or
> > > > showing
> > > > > > there
> > > > > >
> > > > > > perhaps a temporary question or situation
> > during
> > > > > > wwii
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i think modern dztn is the dash & dot line
> > > > > > not the black dash dash line
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & of course the other convergents
> > > > > > lytn & dzly
> > > > > > are shown by the crosses
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & i cant account for any of the other lines
> > > > > > but assume they are irrelevant to finding
> > the
> > > > > > tripoint
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the only presently outstanding question i am
> > > > aware
> > > > > > of in this
> > > > > > vicinity is probably too small to be shown
> > on
> > > > this
> > > > > > map
> > > > > > namely whether dztn meets the arc at its
> > > > northeast
> > > > > > terminal
> > > > > > or subdivides the arc 2km counterclockwise
> > from
> > > > > > there
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://home.worldonline.dk/jesniel/border/african_tripoints.htm#d
> > > > > > zlytn
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so as i understand it
> > > > > > only 2 possible tripoint positions are on
> > this
> > > > arc
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > Michael
> > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > BJNG - Ok by my count I get 10:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under Alignment section - 26, 33, 35, 42,
> > 44,
> > > > 47,
> > > > > > 53,
> > > > > > > 55, 57, 60
> > > > > > > Which are the other one or two?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also: On
> > > > http://www.manntaylor.com/FtSaintM.jpg -
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > solid green arrow almost points right to
> > > > DZLYTN.
> > > > > > What
> > > > > > > boundary is the hollow green arrow
> > pointing
> > > > to?
> > > > > > > Currently this must be all in DZ. And the
> > > > line
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > the south - what is this? It would divide
> > > > > > territory
> > > > > > > which is currently all in Libya. How many
> > TPs
> > > > > > > (including ghost points) can be on this
> > one
> > > > arc?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > please look for several insertions
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > Michael
> > > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > 1. DZLYTN
> > > > > > http://www.manntaylor.com/FtSaintM.jpg
> > > > > > > > > (this could be DZLY and LYTN or just
> > DZLY
> > > > as
> > > > > > per
> > > > > > > > msg.
> > > > > > > > > 13465)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > correct & we still dont know which is
> > true
> > > > > > > > so you are right to keep counting it or
> > them
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > either 1 or 2
> > > > > > > > borders
> > > > > > > > but this is apparently only a single
> > sweep
> > > > of
> > > > > > arc in
> > > > > > > > any case
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. DZLY
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/bs1
> > > > > > > > b.php
> > > > > > > > > 3. LYNE
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/bs2.
> > > > > > > > php
> > > > > > > > > 4.-15. BJNG (12 of these?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i still cant be sure
> > > > > > > > but the following text seems to indicate
> > > > either
> > > > > > 11
> > > > > > > > or 12
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS091.pdf
> > > > > > > > > 16. NENG
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS093.pdf
> > > > > > > > > (but not evident)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it is evident in the above text
> > > > > > > > but i think we just havent yet found a
> > good
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > map
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 17.-??? MXUS (msg. 13937; how many
> > are
> > > > > > there?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > unknown
> > > > > > > > but i believe only 1 has been reported
> > so
> > > > far
> > > > > > > > & suspect the 1970 mxus treaty will
> > reveal
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > if there are any others
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > SO,
> > > > > > > > > We can't put a firm number on it.
> > Depends
> > > > on
> > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > variables:
> > > > > > > > > 1. Where DZLYTN falls. If there is a
> > > > short
> > > > > > LYTN
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > have 18 not 17.
> > > > > > > > > 2. Also, do we know 12 for BJNG? So
> > it
> > > > would
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > or less if not exactly 12.
> > > > > > > > > 3. And how many more arcs for MXUS on
> > the
> > > > > > > > channelized
> > > > > > > > > Rio Grande?
> > > > > > > > > I am not yet counting ITVA since I
> > think
> > > > here
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > be talking about features (not
> > figures)
> > > > which
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > be perfectly geometrically true arcs.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > true
> > > > > > > > & other reasons not to count any of the
> > itva
> > > > > > curves
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > that they are elliptical rather than
> > > > circular
> > > > > > > > & that their total number is so highly
> > > > debatable
> > > > > > > > amounting to either 1 or 3 or 5 or even
> > more
> > > > > > > > depending on point of view
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > what a mess
> > > > > > > > & good idea to sidestep it
> > > > > > > > on any grounds
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > we have
> > > > > > > > by this exact count
> > > > > > > > at least 16 international border arcs
> > > > > > > > but still perhaps as many as 18
> > > > > > > > or more
> > > > > > > > if more are found
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & they are evidently situated on 6
> > different
> > > > > > borders
> > > > > > > > & 1 tripoint
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > of course some wag will now come along
> > to
> > > > remind
> > > > > > us
> > > > > > > > that all
> > > > > > > > small & great circle arc borders
> > > > > > > > including every single segment between
> > > > > > intervisible
> > > > > > > > markers
> > > > > > > > are technically border arcs too
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so we should add an extra zillion or 2
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > end insertions
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > arif
> > > > > > > > > > i too believed in this arc report
> > about
> > > > > > > > easternmost
> > > > > > > > > > gmsn
> > > > > > > > > > & may even have been responsible for
> > > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > rumor about it
> > > > > > > > > > but i have been unable to
> > substantiate
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > this border is set at a fixed
> > distance
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > river on both sides
> > > > > > > > > > presumably from both its banks
> > rather
> > > > than
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > > thalweg
> > > > > > > > > > just like the manh state line is
> > offset
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > merrimack
> > > > > > > > > > except doubly so
> > > > > > > > > > as you probably also realized
> > > > > > > > > > & can see here
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/gambia_pol88.jpg
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > however
> > > > > > > > > > as beguilingly arclike as all this
> > may
> > > > seem
> > > > > > > > > > such a regime would not actually
> > > > presuppose
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > true
> > > > > > > > > > arcs at all
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > except
> > > > > > > > > > i would agree
> > > > > > > > > > conceivably a single one centered at
> > the
> > > > > > > > headspring
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > however
> > > > > > > > > > the source of the gambia river is
> > not in
> > > > > > gambia
> > > > > > > > > > but in senegal
> > > > > > > > > > as you can also see in the above map
> > > > > > > > > > & therefore the simple offset regime
> > > > couldnt
> > > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > such a
> > > > > > > > > > simple terminal arc sector
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > only by varying the apparent regime
> > &
> > > > > > reducing
> > > > > > > > it to
> > > > > > > > > > a single
> > > > > > > > > > offset center point in the middle of
> > the
> > > > > > river
> > > > > > > > > > could such a final true arc have
> > been
> > > > > > produced
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > also the map doesnt show any such
> > > > terminal
> > > > > > > > rounding
> > > > > > > > > > or bulge
> > > > > > > > > > as one would expect in such a case
> > > > > > > > > > but quite the contrary
> > > > > > > > > > something more like a foreshortening
> > or
> > > > > > > > truncation
> > > > > > > > > > of the basic regime
> > > > > > > > > > & indeed it makes the cutoff point
> > look
> > > > > > quite
> > > > > > > > > > arbitrary & artificial
> > > > > > > > > > & somehow distinctly at odds with
> > the
> > > > basic
> > > > > > > > offset
> > > > > > > > > > regime
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > so at this point i think the
> > existence
> > > > of an
> > > > > > arc
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > gmsn hasnt
> > > > > > > > > > been & probably wont be demonstrated
> >
> > > > > > > > > > & was just a wishful thought &
> > > > misconception
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first place
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > mind you
> > > > > > > > > > i dont actually know how the gmsn
> > border
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > accomplish this
> > > > > > > > > > remarkable turnabout at its east end
> > if
> > > > not
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > approximation of an arc or arcs
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > & i can still imagine how it might
> > > > somehow
> > > > > > > > involve a
> > > > > > > > > > true arc or 2
> > > > > > > > > > based at some known terminal cross
> > > > section
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > river
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > but i dont believe there is any text
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > specifies
> > > > > > > > > > to this effect
> > > > > > > > > > nor any map that suggests it
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > meanwhile
> > > > > > > > > > i have scoured the ghost frgb lines
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > > > & have discovered nothing new
> > > > > > > > > > so our world class border arc census
> > is
> > > > > > again
> > > > > > > > > > stalled
> > > > > > > > > > at a top count of about 20 now &
> > perhaps
> > > > > > forever
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > Arif
> > > > > > Samad
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > <fHoiberg@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Not sure, but isn't there some (at
> > > > least
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > arc)
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the border of Senegal and Gambia.
> > As
> > > > far
> > > > > > as I
> > > > > > > > > > > thought, the Easternmost point is
> > > > directly
> > > > > > > > east of
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > Center of the arc in that border.
> > > > > > > > > > > Arif
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________
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> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail