Subject: Re: Possible to have land in USA that isn't in a State?
Date: Aug 03, 2004 @ 18:48
Author: aletheiak ("aletheiak" <aletheiak@...>)
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> I think that the essential difference between the situationsalong the 49th
> parallel east and west of the Rocky Mountains was this:boundary west of
>
> Pursuant to the Treaty of 1848 that established the 49th as the
> the Rockies, commissioners surveyed and marked theboundary, their report being
> accepted by the British minister to Washington and the USSecretary of State in
> 1870. That declaration of acceptance says that thecommissioners had produced
> seven sectional maps of their work along the boundary, "whichboundary has been
> defined by the Commissioners by marks upon the ground."Thus the boundary as
> demarcated by monuments had been officially accepted, andno mention was made of
> sagging curves of latitude between the monuments.1876 report by
>
> The Treaty of 1908, however, harkens back to and quotes an
> different commissioners that it was then agreed to that theboundary east of the
> Rockies "has the curvature of a parallel" even in the intervalsbetween the
> monuments. It was this unfortunate situation (which defeatsthe practical
> utility of intervisible monuments) that was corrected by theTreaty of 1925.
>that isn't in a
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Kaufman" <mikekaufman79@y...>
> To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 1:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Possible to have land in USA
> State?http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/ca_us/en/cus.1908.299.en.html
>
>
> > Ok reading your and Dave's responses, I realize I may
> > not have been clear.
> >
> > I completely agree with the fact that the 1925 treaty
> > changed the Eastern section from the 49th parallel to
> > great circle arcs. This really can't be reasonably
> > questioned. But my question is only about the area
> > West of the Rockies, and whether or not this was great
> > circle arcs as of 1908 (we are all assuming it was).
> >
> > In the 1908 treaty, the border is defined as "the line
> > so laid down" on the charts. It is here where there
> > is no mention of the word straight. A line doesn't
> > necessarily have to be straight - look at the language
> > IBC uses in the quote Dave just brought up:
> > "...changed from a slightly curved line between
> > monuments to a series of straight lines." (This talks
> > of the Eastern section, but my use of the quote is
> > just to show "line" can mean curved line.)
> >
> > Also - if the difference is indistinguishable on the
> > charts of the sections west of the Rockies, then we
> > would not know if the line was meant to be curved
> > following the 49th or straight. I mean if you Meant
> > to draw a line following the curve, it would appear
> > straight.
> >
> > Now to me, the biggest piece of evidence that the 1908
> > west of the Rockies section DID consist of great
> > circle arcs is that the 1925 treaty changed Only the
> > eastern section saying that following the curve of the
> > parallel was impractical. Ok, so obviously we should
> > then assume that since only the Eastern part was
> > changed to something better, the Western part must
> > already have been that same something better,
> > otherwise it would have changed too. This is a very
> > reasonable assumption but the way I see it it is only
> > circumstantial evidence.
> >
> > And though circumstantial evidence is good, absolute
> > certainty is always much better.
> >
> > --- "Lowell G. McManus" <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> >
> > > It is the 1925 treaty that specifies "a series of
> > > right or straight lines
> > > joining adjacent monuments ... in lieu of the
> > > definition ... quoted in Article
> > > VI of the said Treaty of 1908, that in the intervals
> > > between the monuments the
> > > line has the curvature of the parallel of 49ยบ north
> > > latitude."
> > >
> > > I don't know what kind of maps they used, but the
> > > lines were straight on the
> > > ground, whereas the 49th parallel would sag
> > > southward between monuments. If the
> > > maximum sag was 1.8 feet, as the 1925 treaty says,
> > > then the difference would
> > > have been indistinguishable on any map showing the
> > > intervisible monuments.
> > >
> > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Michael Kaufman" <mikekaufman79@y...>
> > > To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 10:14 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Possible to have
> > > land in USA that isn't in a
> > > State?
> > >
> > >
> > > > The "line so laid down" has to do with what is
> > > marked
> > > > on the charts and agreed to by the commissioners.
> > > Ok,
> > > > borderline nitpicking here but it never says
> > > "straight
> > > > lines." (though I don't see why they would draw
> > > them
> > > > any other way) And even assuming straight lines,
> > > if
> > > > these charts are of Mercator-type, then straight
> > > lines
> > > > would follow the curve of the 49th. Don't know
> > > what
> > > > the standards of a century ago were in terms of
> > > what
> > > > type of map projection the commisioners used, but
> > > that
> > > > fact would seem to be vital to the determination
> > > of
> > > > the boundary.
> > > >
> > > > Article VII
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > > >http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/ca_us/en/cus.1908.299.en.html
> > > > --- "Lowell G. McManus" <mcmanus71496@m...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have found the 1908 treaty since writing my
> > > > > message below. It is at
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > All "Canado-american" boundary treaties are
> > > on-line
> > > > > at
> > > > > http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/ca_us/s_13_en.html
> > > .
> > > > > All agreements on "boundary waters" are at
> > > > > http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/ca_us/s_6_en.html
> > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy!
> > > > >
> > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...>
> > > > > To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 8:46 PM
> > > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Possible to have
> > > land
> > > > > in USA that isn't in a State?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell
> > > G.
> > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > The original documents almost always clarify
> > > the
> > > > > > commentaries.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > good point
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & why consult the bible if you can read god
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so can you dish up the 1908 text like that too
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
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