--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kaufman
<mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> About MA-NH - I was wondering if it was originally
> monumented or if it were specified as 3 miles from the
> thalweg or north (or south) bank or median line.
is that if or if
as in whether or
or only or or or or
in any case
no original border is originally monumented
a delineation or delimitation evidently always precedes monumentation
it is hard to imagine an exception
successor borders however usually are originally monumented
this particular border was evidently originally delineated 3 miles
from the river
hence from its north bank
or since the river meanders so
lets call this the left bank to avoid further confusion
If
> this were true, it would be a living, moving boundary
> on land.
technically it was a living moving boundary on land until it was
monumented
tho it was probably not noticed moving much
any more than avulsion is noticed in action
indeed far less presumably
since who was there to run back & forth the 3 miles & keep measuring
Any line between two towns in one state
> defined as ending at the state line would thus produce
> moving tripoints.
this is true anywhere the state line is a living moving state line
true of county lines as well
etc
end inserts
> And about length of town lines out to sea: I am
> curious to know when I am on the beach if there might
> be tripoints townA-townB-state right there. The
> depicted Salisbury-Newburyport line seems to go past
> the tp with MA into wholly MA state territory for a
> while. Across a state line, there would be a
> quadripoint where the state line reaches the low tide
> mark. So at the low tide line you would have
> MA-NH-Salisbury-Seabrook.
>
> --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > Kaufman
> > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > Ok, and with GM-SN - is this also monumented, or
> > is it
> > > threoretically a point-by-point offset?
> >
> > i seem to recall brownlie indicating it was
> > monumented
> >
> > I find no IBS
> > > study for this boundary. How far is the offset on
> > > each side?
> >
> > 10 kilometers
> >
> > > How about the offset for MA-NH?
> >
> > 3 miles
> >
> > Is there historical
> > > info for this (plus distance?)
> >
> > what do you mean
> >
> > i could drag out the bus&ss & give you the exact
> > dates of the
> > delineation & of the demarcation
> >
> > > My oops was just for mistaking the border of
> > Salisbury
> > > Beach State Reservation with the outer boundary of
> > the
> > > town. Regarding MA-NH, I do see it petering out
> > and
> > > stopping but then just blackness - I can't see the
> > red
> > > line (for the 3 nm limit).
> >
> > you need the 100k scale map for that
> >
> > And if indeed the town
> > > boundaries stop at the low tide line, then also
> > note
> > > that there is another error on the map, for they
> > have
> > > extended the Salisbury-Newburyport town line all
> > the
> > > way into the ocean, as far out as they have
> > extended
> > > MA-NH.
> >
> > not necessarily an error
> > tho sometimes the mapmakers really dont know when to
> > stop
> >
> > but why are you so curious about everything
> >
> > is there a point in all this
> > or just a great thirst for knowledge of any kind
> >
> > end of insertions
> >
> >
> >
> > This line is here:
> > > http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?
> >
> z=19&n=4742171&e=352160&s=50&size=m&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25
> > > You can follow it all the way out east. So it
> > looks
> > > like one line too short, one too long. Now to
> > find
> > > one just right...
> > >
> > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > dont know how much of your observation & query
> > > > string the ensuing
> > > > oops was meant to obviate
> > > > but maybe the following inserts will still
> > > > illuminate or levitate
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > Kaufman
> > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > MANH state line - while the border
> > approximately
> > > > > follows the Merrimack at some general distance
> > > > offset
> > > > > (
> > http://ma.water.usgs.gov/basins/merrimack.htm
> > > > > ), it is monumented and the border is the
> > > > standard
> > > > > series of straight lines as depicted on
> > Topozone (
> > > > > http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?
> > > >
> > >
> >
> z=19&n=4747939.00011567&e=351357.999989004&datum=nad83
> > > > > and westward).
> > > >
> > > > correct
> > > > & i didnt mean to imply it hasnt also been set
> > by
> > > > standard markers
> > > > but only meant that the original delineation was
> > a
> > > > river bank offset
> > > > line
> > > >
> > > > > And in that Topozone map - is that a
> > > > > Salisbury-Seabrook-Massachusetts tripoint?
> > > >
> > > > i dont think so in any case
> > > >
> > > > the manh state line shown on the 100k scale topo
> > > > petering out
> > > > somewhat shy of the 3mile limit is just
> > incomplete
> > > >
> > > > it should be extended mentally all the way out
> > to
> > > > the red line
> > > > & doesnt reflect town limits anyway
> > > >
> > > > & tho there are exceptions
> > > > i believe municipal territories generally end &
> > > > state territories
> > > > generally begin at the low tide line
> > > > unless otherwise indicated
> > > >
> > > > like salisbury beach state park is otherwise
> > > > indicated
> > > >
> > > > NH towns
> > > > > have more ocean territorry than MA towns?
> > > >
> > > > with the above unusual exception
> > > > apparently usually not
> > > > but of course i dont really know every other
> > > > exception either
> > > >
> > > > And is it
> > > > > up to the three Nautical mile limit?
> > > >
> > > > generally state territories only extend up to
> > this
> > > > limit
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > arif
> > > > > > i too believed in this arc report about
> > > > easternmost
> > > > > > gmsn
> > > > > > & may even have been responsible for
> > starting
> > > > the
> > > > > > rumor about it
> > > > > > but i have been unable to substantiate it
> > > > > >
> > > > > > this border is set at a fixed distance from
> > the
> > > > > > river on both sides
> > > > > > presumably from both its banks rather than
> > from
> > > > its
> > > > > > thalweg
> > > > > > just like the manh state line is offset from
> > the
> > > > > > merrimack
> > > > > > except doubly so
> > > > > > as you probably also realized
> > > > > > & can see here
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/gambia_pol88.jpg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > however
> > > > > > as beguilingly arclike as all this may seem
> > > > > > such a regime would not actually presuppose
> > any
> > > > true
> > > > > > arcs at all
> > > > > >
> > > > > > except
> > > > > > i would agree
> > > > > > conceivably a single one centered at the
> > > > headspring
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > however
> > > > > > the source of the gambia river is not in
> > gambia
> > > > > > but in senegal
> > > > > > as you can also see in the above map
> > > > > > & therefore the simple offset regime couldnt
> > > > project
> > > > > > such a
> > > > > > simple terminal arc sector
> > > > > >
> > > > > > only by varying the apparent regime &
> > reducing
> > > > it to
> > > > > > a single
> > > > > > offset center point in the middle of the
> > river
> > > > > > could such a final true arc have been
> > produced
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > also the map doesnt show any such terminal
> > > > rounding
> > > > > > or bulge
> > > > > > as one would expect in such a case
> > > > > > but quite the contrary
> > > > > > something more like a foreshortening or
> > > > truncation
> > > > > > of the basic regime
> > > > > > & indeed it makes the cutoff point look
> > quite
> > > > > > arbitrary & artificial
> > > > > > & somehow distinctly at odds with the basic
> > > > offset
> > > > > > regime
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so at this point i think the existence of an
> > arc
> > > > on
> > > > > > gmsn hasnt
> > > > > > been & probably wont be demonstrated
> > > > > > & was just a wishful thought & misconception
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > first place
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mind you
> > > > > > i dont actually know how the gmsn border
> > does
> > > > > > accomplish this
> > > > > > remarkable turnabout at its east end if not
> > in
> > > > some
> > > > > > approximation of an arc or arcs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & i can still imagine how it might somehow
> > > > involve a
> > > > > > true arc or 2
> > > > > > based at some known terminal cross section
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > river
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but i dont believe there is any text that
> > > > specifies
> > > > > > to this effect
> > > > > > nor any map that suggests it
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > meanwhile
> > > > > > i have scoured the ghost frgb lines of the
> > > > period
> > > > > > & have discovered nothing new
> > > > > > so our world class border arc census is
> > again
> > > > > > stalled
> > > > > > at a top count of about 20 now & perhaps
> > forever
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Arif
> > Samad
> > > >
> > > > > > <fHoiberg@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > Not sure, but isn't there some (at least
> > one
> > > > arc)
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > the border of Senegal and Gambia. As far
> > as I
> > > > > > > thought, the Easternmost point is directly
> > > > east of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Center of the arc in that border.
> > > > > > > Arif
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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