--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <
mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> The question of a ghost international tripoint at the intersection of the=
31st
> parallel and the Mississippi River (or anywhere east of there along the
> parallel) all boils down to the evolving status of West Florida as the re=
st of
> what is now Louisiana was ceded, retroceded, transferred, and sold.
>
> One of the first things that any junior-high history student in this stat=
e
> learns is the definition of the "Isle of Orleans." This is a term that h=
as been
> used since colonial times to refer to the land east of the Mississippi th=
at (at
> every stage of history) has been united in matters of sovereignty with th=
e west
> side of the river. The Isle of Orleans consisted of land east of the
> Mississippi from the Gulf to a point just south of Baton Rogue where the =
river
> gave birth to a distributary, historically called the Iberville River (no=
w Bayou
> Manchac--severed from the Mississippi by levee in early historic times). =
From
> this point, the northern boundary of the Isle of Orleans passed (with the=
> distributed waters) to the sea via what are now called Bayou Manchac, the=
Amite
> River, the Blind River, Lake Maurepas, Pass Manchac, Lake Pontchartrain, =
and The
> Rigolets.
>
> In the Treaty of Paris of 1763, the French ceded to the British the lands=
east
> of a boundary that descended the Mississippi "to the river Iberville, and=
from
> thence by a line drawn along the middle of this river and the Lakes Maure=
pas and
> Pontchartrain to the sea." In a treaty with the Spanish signed the same =
day,
> the French ceded to them what remained of "the country known under the na=
me of
> Louisiana, as also New Orleans and the island in which that city is situa=
ted."
>
> The eight parishes of Louisiana that lie between the Isle of Orleans and =
the
> 31st parallel are very commonly known to this day as "the Florida Parishe=
s"
> because this region was not part of Spanish colonial Louisiana or the sub=
sequent
> retrocession to France, but rather was in the British and then Spanish co=
lony of
> West Florida. The same area was only added to the State of Louisiana by =
a
> separate act of Congress six days after statehood.
>
> I have already covered the northward expansion of West Florida under Brit=
ain and
> its conquest by Spain during the American Revolution.
>
> That brings us to the provisional treaty between Britain and the United S=
tates
> in 1782 and the definitive treaty in 1783. In both, the Mississippi Rive=
r and
> the 31st parallel are mentioned as boundaries of the United States. In t=
he 1783
> treaty, Britain also recognized Spanish sovereignty south of the parallel=
. Of
> the intersection of the river and the parallel, Mike has written "it now =
seems
> to me there was indeed an esgbus there briefly in 1783." Well, perhaps, =
but
> only in a rather convoluted and strictly de jure way.
well i hesitate to break in tho i must say not perhaps but definitely
& convoluted is no problem if you are prepared to face all the relevant
facts
to begin with
de jure tripunctivity is what we are primarily after here
isnt it
the de facto stuff is interesting to be sure
but generally far less exacting & punctilious
& such tripoints are practically untryable for normal try pointing
purposes
let alone ghost pointing purposes
the preciously rare exceptions btw being our cyprian quartet
which we still believe could still be pinpointed empirically
ahh but thats another story
so anyway de facto is fine
but i say bring on the de jure truth in all its convolution
because that is a primary objective in all our try pointing
more below
Spain was in de facto
> possession of the east bank of the Mississippi up to Vicksburg from 1779 =
until
> the Pinckney Treaty of 1795, and they were not party to any recitation of=
the
> boundaries of the USA in 1783
no but that doesnt mean the brits could cede the same land twice
first to the usa & then to spain
once they gave it to the yanks it was yanko
& a de jure esgbus1783 resulted at 31st & mississippi
however fleetingly
later in 1783 the brits may have conveniently equivocated &or the
spanish conveniently misunderstood
& the ultimate clarification of what had by then become only a
turnpoint on esus occurred in 1795
more below
(that year's "Treaty of Paris" being a pack of
> treaties between different parties rather than one between all parties). =
So, to
> anoint this location as a brief tripoint at that time, one would have to
> consider the provisional US/British treaty of 1782 as binding upon Spain =
in
> regard to the 31st parallel and recognize Britain as the de jure sovereig=
n over
> the portion of West Florida south of the parallel until Spain's de facto
> possession became de jure in the 1783 British/Spanish treaty. You may do=
so if
> you wish, but I think you must call it a brief de jure tripoint with a co=
uple of
> footnotes.
yes of course i wish to see everything east of the mississippi & north
of the 31st parallel as american since 1783
because thats what the 1783 gbus treaty says
& i dont think the footnotes are a must at all
it only seems they are a must to you because your entire exposition is
preceded by & centered upon the defactivity of it all & only comes
around to the actual dejurativity when squeezed to the limit
but the dejurativity is my starting point
with defactivity of interest to me only secondarily & by default
that is
for lack of anything better
i realize it is a difference in our point of view
but i also think you are being a little unrealistic to think in terms
of actual de facto tripoints when even the actual de facto borders are
so elusive & ephemeral & arbitrary thruout this area & period
>
> Now, fast forward to 1800. Louisiana had proved to be a very expensive c=
olony
> for Spain. The southwestern corner of the USA was now firmly established=
at the
> corner of 31st and Mississippi. West Florida, the Isle of Orleans, and
> Louisiana west of the river were all Spanish. In that year, Napoleon Bon=
aparte
> decided that he wanted Louisiana back for France. On October 1, in the S=
ecret
> Treaty of San Ildefonso (in exchange for an enlargement of the Bourbon-ru=
led
> Duchy of Parma), Spain retroceded Louisiana to France "with the same exte=
nt that
> it now has in the hands of Spain, and that it had when France possessed i=
t, and
> such as it should be after the treaties subsequently entered into between=
Spain
> and other states." This included Louisiana west of the river and the Isl=
e of
> Orleans. It excluded West Florida, which had passed by treaty to Britain=
in
> 1763 and was now recognized as Spanish by treaties with Britain in 1783 a=
nd the
> USA in 1795.
>
> So, as Louisiana west of the river passes to France, the corner of 31st a=
nd
> Mississippi does unquestionably become a secret de jure ESFRUS tripoint. =
It is
> secret because the treaty is secret. It is de jure and not de facto beca=
use the
> secrecy of the treaty left Spain in de facto control of Louisiana. The s=
ecrecy
> ended in 1802, and the de facto Spanish rule ended on November 30, 1803, =
when
> French officials assumed power in New Orleans. Twenty days later, on Dec=
ember
> 20, American officials assumed power from those same Frenchmen. So, for =
twenty
> days, the corner of 31st and Mississippi was a fully acknowledged de fact=
o and
> de jure tripoint in every sense of the word. It was indeed at that point=
, and
> not somewhere eastward along the parallel.
good
thanx
so our hastily claimed starting corner
of 31st & miss between 1783 & 1803
proves to be both
esgbus1783 for an unknown number of days
as well as 1800esfrus1803
& de facto esfrus1803 for 20 days as well
>
> Despite Jefferson's wishful pretenses that the Louisiana Purchase might p=
ossibly
> have included lands as far west as the Rio Grande and as far east as the
> Perdido, "Florida Occidental" remained Spanish for several more years. D=
uring
> the British period, the colony had attracted certain American Tories, and=
the
> Spanish had later welcomed an influx of industrious American planters. T=
hese
> Anglos revolted against Spanish rule in 1810 (along with the vast majorit=
y of
> Spain's New World colonies), seized Fort San Carlos at Baton Rouge, and
> established the Republic of West Florida. It last only days before being=
> unceremoniously assimilated into the USA by occupation. The region's bel=
ated
> inclusion in the State of Louisiana is discussed at length in BUS&SS.
>
> Strangely, BUS&SS is entirely silent on any survey of the 31st parallel b=
oundary
> between Louisiana and Mississippi.
whattt
thats the freakin ellicott line
& many of the mounds are still recoverable
It was probably done by the General Land
> Office, since it is the base line of the St. Helena Meridian. That said,=
the
> LAMS boundary appears on topographic maps to be perhaps two to four secon=
ds
> south of the actual parallel. Since the ESUS boundary and its ghost trip=
oint
> were never surveyed, I think we should use the actual meridian rather tha=
n the
> current LAMS boundary.
whoa
perhaps for esgbus1783 i might agree
but not for 1800esfrus1803 as thats post ellicott
Regardless of the parallel chosen, it will be impossible
> to precisely pinpoint where the middle of the river was in 1803.
hahahaha
yes that is more to the point isnt it
but we do have ellicotts 1799 map
hmmm
but then none of what follows below follows logically does it
we need to cut direct to ellicott
Any class-D
> try should be from the west bank of the river,
i agree but only because i know angola is no fun
the east side below LAMS being
> the Louisiana State Penitentiary (Angola), and the neighboring area of
> Mississippi being accessible by road only through the penitentiary. (Wha=
t other
> state would have the gall to place its maximum-security penitentiary up a=
gainst
> a neighboring state for five miles?)
do you mean what state has more gall than louisiana
possibly south carolina
i dont know
could you rephrase the question
>
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "acroorca2002" <orc@o...>
> To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 7:48 PM
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American ghost tripoints
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <
> mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > In one of your messages "Re: Grosvenor on maps," you inventoried a smal=
l =
> but
> > intriguing collection of ghost points within the present USA. I commen=
d =
> you for
> > your ingenuity in rooting these out
>
> thanx lowell
> i have been savoring your appreciation all this time because i happen
> to agree with it
> & am exuberant about zeroing in further on all of these ghost
> tricountry points of the usa
>
> & commend such national fun to nationals of all nations
>
> more below
>
>
> , but I must differ with your interpretation
> > of one. You wrote:
> >
> > > btw
> > > the one other de jure ghost tricountry point possibility in the usa
> > > 1783esgbus1803
> > > may fall at the point where the full mississippi river descends into
> > > louisiana
> > > if i have it all right
> >
> > As I understand you, the point that you intend is the southwestern corn=
er=
> of
> > Mississippi. For the reasons that I will give below, I do not believe =
th=
> at this
> > point was ever an international tripoint.
>
> yes you may well be right
> & your analysis below does show my first guess above was indeed off
> target
> at least in point of its time frame & constituency
>
> but what does appear to have obtained in this general location
> if not at the exact point i mentioned
> then somewhere east of it upon nlat31
> was the de facto but secret 1802esfrus1803
>
> thats the point i was looking for amidst the entire 1783 to 1803
> maelstrom of cessions & retrocessions etc that circulated about this
> point
> or perhaps about somewhere just east of it
> not sure
>
> but do you agree so far
>
>
> for it is not so much that you have struck an item from this precious
> little inventory
> as that you have helped to track & pin it down further
>
> for i am happy to report that in my view this ghost still lives albeit
> considerably transformed from my first sketch of it
>
>
> & if you do agree then where exactly did this 1802esfrus1803 fall
>
> in other words how much of west florida did spain secretly retrocede to
> france with the secret greater louisiana retrocession of 1802
>
> & so exactly where on the 31st parallel did the true if fleeting ghost
> tricountry point i was & am still looking for actually fall
>
>
> i mean if it isnt the same point i have incorrectly specified the
> 1783esgbus1803 above
>
> but maybe another & still more careful reading of bus&ss will suffice
>
>
>
> also i believe i am making a little progress pinning down the 17th
> century de facto frgbnls
>
> the dutch map i mentioned probably overstated things
>
> my sense is that these points really fell somewhere between cooperstown
> & amsterdam new york in the west
> & at roughly springfield mass in the east
>
> beyond in both case were brits on the one hand
> & howling indians & their french allies on the other
>
>
> >
> > The east-west boundary between southeastern Louisiana and Mississippi f=
ol=
> lows
> > the 31st parallel. This line was first mentioned as a boundary in 1763=
. =
> In
> > that year's Treaty of Paris, by which French sovereignty was expunged f=
ro=
> m North
> > America, the Spanish (as allies of the French) had also lost their Flor=
id=
> as.
> > Thus, a 1763 royal proclamation created two new British provinces, East=
F=
> lorida
> > and West Florida, divided at the Apalachicola River, with the 31st para=
ll=
> el
> > specified as the northern boundary of West Florida to the Mississippi R=
iv=
> er.
> > West of the Mississippi was Spanish Louisiana, and north of the 31st pa=
ra=
> llel
> > was, presumably, the Georgia colony (under its charter reaching to the =
So=
> uth
> > Sea).
> >
> > The very next year (1764), however, the British extended the northern b=
ou=
> ndary
> > of West Florida to an east-west line running through the mouth of the Y=
as=
> sous
> > [Yazoo] River (just above present-day Vicksburg). Land north of this l=
in=
> e was
> > given to the new Province of Illinois. This, of course, was one of the=
i=
> rksome
> > British actions calculated to deprive the people of Britain's Atlantic =
co=
> astal
> > colonies of the western lands for which they felt they had fought the F=
re=
> nch and
> > Indians--one of the festering seeds of the coming American Revolution.
> >
> > The British province of West Florida was governed from Fort George at P=
en=
> sacola.
> > The British presence also included Fort Charlotte at Mobile, Fort Bute =
on=
> the
> > Mississippi below Baton Rouge, Fort New Richmond at Baton Rouge, and Fo=
rt=
>
> > Panmure at Natchez.
> >
> > During the American Revolution, Spain declared war on Britain in May 17=
79=
> Don
> > Bernardo de Gálvez, the Spanish Governor of Louisiana (and later Vicero=
y =
> of New
> > Spain) personally led Spanish forces up the Mississippi from New Orlean=
s =
> and
> > captured Forts Bute, New Richmond, and Panmure in September 1779. He t=
he=
> n
> > sailed eastward along the Gulf Coast, capturing Fort Charlotte in March=
1=
> 780,
> > and besieging Fort George with 3,500 men. The British authorities at P=
en=
> sacola
> > formally surrendered West Florida to the Spanish on May 10, 1781. (The=
> > Daughters of the American Revolution admit to membership the descendant=
s =
> of all
> > Spanish forces who fought under Gálvez!)
> >
> > So, by the time the British recognized American independence in the Tre=
at=
> y of
> > Paris of 1783, West Florida was in Spanish hands. In the treaty, the =
Br=
> itish
> > recognized the boundary of the United States in the west as extending d=
ow=
> n the
> > Mississippi River to the 31st parallel and Spanish sovereignty south of=
t=
> hat.
> > The Spanish, however, claimed the whole of the former British West Flor=
id=
> a
> > northward to the Yazoo as theirs by conquest. They established Fort No=
ga=
> les at
> > Vicksburg in 1791. This matter was not settled between the US and Spai=
n =
> until
> > 1795, when the Pinckney Treaty (Treaty of San Lorenzo el Real) finally =
cl=
> arified
> > the boundary as the 31st parallel. (The discussion above relies upon t=
he=
> first
> > several paragraphs of the Florida section of BUS&SS plus various works =
on=
> the
> > histories of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.)
> >
> > So, at whatever time one considers US sovereignty to have arrived de ju=
re=
> at the
> > corner of the Mississippi River and the 31st parallel (whether 1783 or =
17=
> 95),
> > both the land to the west of the river and to the south of the parallel=
b=
> elonged
> > to Spain. Thus, there was no international tripoint.
> >
> > Lowell G. McManus
> > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
>
>
>
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