good stuff
tho as previously mentioned
the depa arc is actually 2 different arcs
& the prismatic stone within the dupont compound
or what you are calling the paleotrifinium
is actually 3 & a half miles south of demdpa
rather than the mile or so you are indicating
also danson just arrived to confirm that mason & dixon actually did
run their west line backwards from modern demdpa all the way to the
delaware river near wilmington
so you may want to correct for that new info in your presentation also
in addition danson confirms all my previous data & surmises about all
3 of the mason dixon preliminary points i had previously identified
without adding anything much new
except he does place the original post marked west
exactly 2 miles 79 chains 27 links east of modern demdpa
correcting my admittedly fishy 3 & a half mile figure given below
with a new position which i was able to plot approximately at topozone
however the usgs topo does not confirm any extant monument anywhere
near that position
nor for that matter does it reveal the exact location of the
stargazers stone 15 miles north of there
nor of the southernmost point of old philly 31 miles east of that
both of which latter however should be much easier to find from other
data
the real trick & piece de resistance will be in finding the original
post marked west
even using a gps receiver
for this post was only a wooden marker & may no longer exist
btw
the point on the delaware river is called the post marked east
& modern demdpa is called
the post marked west on the west side & north on the north side
to distinguish it from the original
post marked west
which was marked only west & only on the west side
monty python couldnt have named them all better
but these latter 2 especially appear to be a source of persistent
confusion
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "bjbutlerus" <bjbutler@b...>
wrote:
> The bottom photo on this page shows the paleotrifinium:
> http://www.bjbsoftware.com/corners/pointdetail.php3?point=24
>
> BJB
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079" <barbaria_longa@h...>
> wrote:
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin"
<flynnk@r...>
> > wrote:
> > > As I recall, you're correct that the Post Mark'd West is *not*
to
> same as
> > > PADEMD. It was a reference point that established the latitude
for
> the west
> > > line. The actual tripoint was a bit west of the post.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately for those who like neat lines and angles, PAMDDE
did
> *not*
> > > occur at the point where the New Castle Arc met the west line.
> >
> > & there is more to this story than meets the eye too
> >
> > the depa arc as it exists today is actually 2 different arcs with
2
> > slightly different centers & 2 slightly different radii
> >
> > their imperceptible point of intersection falls near the middle
of what
> > appears to be a single sweep of arc running all the way from the
> > delaware river down to the mason dixon line
> >
> > & the transition point of these 2 slightly different arcs
> > which has nothing to do with the wedge
> > is even marked by a special stone
> > which i have also visited
> >
> > it is all extremely complicated & esoteric
> >
> > more below
> >
> >
> > Instead, the
> > > 800-acre or so Delaware Notch was the result. IIRC, the notch at
> one time
> > > was claimed by PA after the three counties once controlled by
Penn
> and his
> > > heirs became Delaware instead of the three lower counties of
> Pennsylvania.
> > > If this claim had stood, the PADEMD tripoint would be due south
a
> mile or so
> > > of where it presently is
> >
> > actually about 3 & a half miles south of demdpa
> > which is a bit disconcerting
> > because that is the about same distance east of demdpa i make the
> > meridian of the stargazers stone & the post marked west out to be
> >
> > but it could just be a coincidence rather than any evidence of a
> > misunderstanding
> >
> > the accounts are all very confused tho
> >
> > hopefully danson will settle everything
> >
> >
> > anyway i have visited this paleo demdpa point too
> > which you are referring to
> > at the south tip of the wedge
> >
> > it is within the grounds of a top secret dupont chemical complex
> >
> > i once got a guided tour from their security people
> >
> > then when i tried at a later date to revisit this same compound
> > i was refused admittance
> >
> > this was when i was seeking dew
> > the westernmost point of delaware
> > situated a short distance down the demd arc from paleo demdpa
> >
> > this was part of a cardinal news tour of delaware tho
> > & was only coincidentally riddled with mason dixon stones
> >
> >
> > the demd arc btw is based on a third center & a third radius
> >
> > & there are 2 distinct denj arcs too
> > with still other specs
> > making 5 entirely different arcs in all among the 4 states i think
> >
> > end insertions
> >
> > , and PA would have a miniscule "tooth" of territory
> > > south of the Mason Dixon Line.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: m06079 [mailto:barbaria_longa@h...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:01 PM
> > > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] re mason dixon preliminary points
> > >
> > >
> > > please see below for an addition to the following excerpts from
> > > message 10452 about how mason & dixon got to their mdpa
starting point
> > >
> > > the ref is to a book by edwin danson entitled drawing the line
> > > which btw i still havent seen but am looking for
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002" <orc@o...>
wrote:
> > > > thanx kevin
> > > > sounds like a book many of us will enjoy
> > > >
> > > > after some searching
> > > > i believe i have found the location you mentioned on south
street
> > > > & will look for a commemorative plaque or something
> > > > on the specified north wall
> > > > next time i blow thru there
> > > >
> > > > are there any more data in the book about this most precious
> > > > initial point
> > >
> > > > > > > Once it was established as a line 15 mi (IIRC) south of
> > > > Spruce
> > > > > > Street in
> > > > > > > Philadelphia
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you probably do recall correctly
> > > > > > as it was to be 15 miles south of the southernmost point
of
> > > > > > philadelphia at that time
> > > > > > but how did you arrive at spruce street for it
> > > > > > & what part of spruce street if you can say
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > My error, it wasn't Spruce bur rather South Street, then
known
> > > > as Cedar
> > > > > Street (and I used to live in Philly, no lessl shoulda
known
> > > > better).
> > > > > Anyway, prior to Mason and Dixon's arrival in Philly, the
joint
> > > > commission
> > > > > of PA and MD reps had stipulated with input from city
officials
> > > > that the
> > > > > "southernmost point in the city" would be the north wall of
a
> > > > house on the
> > > > > south side of Cedar (now South) Street near the corner of
> > > > Second Street. The
> > > > > constant latitude would be an E-W line 15 miles south of
this
> > > > point. Of
> > > > > course, because the Delaware River flows SWerly here, Mason
> > > > and Dixon had to
> > > > > survey a course due west from the southernmost point, far
> > > > enough to be west
> > > > > of the presumed place where the New Castle Arc would drop
> > > > below the West
> > > > > Line (the point that should've become PADEMD but did not
> > > > because of the
> > > > > problem of The Wedge) and then drop 15 miles due south to
> > > > mark the latitude
> > > > > of the West Line. (This became the "Post Mark'd West,"
which
> > > > was actually
> > > > > within the 12-mile New Castle Arc; Mason and Dixon had to
> > > > proceed west from
> > > > > there tp begin the actual PAMD West Line at the Arc limit.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > (minus the land enclosed by the New Castle arc, of
> > > > course),
> > > > > > > there was a real concern that the MD-VA line (the right
bank
> > > > of
> > > > > > the Potomac)
> > > > > > > might actually swing so far north that it would extend
north
> > > > of
> > > > > > the MD-PA
> > > > > > > boundary. Now *that* would have been interesting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what is the speculation here as to how that
situation
> > > > might
> > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > equitably resolved among VA-MD-PA?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it might have been equitably resolved the same way kymotn
> > > > was
> > > > > > resolved
> > > > > > which was for the surveyors to just follow the agreed
specs
> > > > > > whatever happened
> > > > > > thus producing in that case the kentucky bend exclave
> > > > > > & in our speculation a similarly detached western md
exclave
> > > > > > as you anticipate below
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > VA was supposed to have the lands south
> > > > > > > of the Potomac; but if the river flowed north of 44 deg
> > > > latitude,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > actually if the river flowed anywhere north of the
latitude
> > > > agreed in
> > > > > > 1760 as you describe it above
> > > > > > or in other words mason & dixons 39d43m17s6
> > > > > > aka mdn of today
> > > > > > for example 39d43m15s521 nad27 at mdne
> > > > > > then it would have done as you say here below
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > it would
> > > > > > > have punctured PA and cut off eastern MD from western
> > > > MD,
> > > > > > creating a large
> > > > > > > enclave. How else could this have been resolved?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i suppose a particularly generous & whimsical pa mightve
> > > > given
> > > > > > to md the part of itself that wouldve fallen south of the
> > > > potomac
> > > > > > & thus produce a sausage chain of 3 mary lands
> > > > > > connected only by 2 mdmdpava tristate quadripoints
> > > > > >
> > > > > However, I wonder whether Virginia would have interceded
and
> > > > actually
> > > > > claimed the land south of the Potomac that under these
> > > > circumstances would
> > > > > have been north of the Mason Dixon Line and therefore
> > > > arguably in PA? Just
> > > > > think, if the commissioners had said 17 miles instead of 15
> > > > miles south of
> > > > > the southernmost point in Philadelphia, we would have had
> > > > this very problem.
> > >
> > > ok so i have returned in the interim to the question of how
mason &
> > > dixon got to their starting point
> > > & tho i cant reconcile various conflicting latitude figures
> > > i have determined from some online sources that the mentioned
house
> > > on the south side of south street near second street belonged
to
> > > thomas plumstead & joseph huddle at the time
> > > & i am hoping this extra detail may be enough to find the house
in
> > > question
> > > or its successor
> > > even if it isnt marked today with a historical plaque
> > >
> > > but that is only preliminary point 1
> > >
> > > in the meantime
> > > i have also zeroed in on the second preliminary point mentioned
above
> > > situated about 30 or 31 miles due west of the first one
> > > on the john harlan farm near the forks of the brandywine
> > > a point actually marked by mason & dixon
> > > by a monument still known today as the stargazers stone
> > >
> > > so there are now at least these 2 preliminary targets
> > >
> > > but in addition i have also found some additional indications
that
> > > the actual initial point of the mason dixon west line
> > > aka the post marked west
> > > may not have been the same point as modern mdne or demdpa
> > > but may actually lie some distance east of it
> > > as i think the above description may also suggest
> > >
> > > so there may actually be 3 preliminary mason dixon points to
find
> > >
> > > but can anyone offer any further info about any of these 3
points
> > > before i go off looking for them all
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/
> > terms/