Simply....
The Compact delineates two separate rights... ownership of *and*
jurisdiction over. They mean two different things, and this to me implies
heavily that Ellis, Bedloes and indeed the waters of NY Bay and the Hudson
that lie west of the middle -- which the compact says are "in" NJ, are
nevertheless "ruled" by NY -- as the US has jurisdiction over Guantanamo
although it is "in" Cuba.
And am I extremely puzzled that you appear to believe it's not possible to
walk a riverbank. My my, it seems such an easy thing to do!
-----Original Message-----
From: acroorca2002 [mailto:
orc@...]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 4:51 PM
To:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: new njny
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin"
<flynnk@r...> wrote:
> Responding here to your inquiry over in the other thread (btw, I
didn't say
> I would actually walk OK-TX! I merely meant it could be done
and in all
> likelihood, has)
hahahahahahhh
hahaha
in your dreams baby
hahahaha
& i am still trying to understand the rest of your unclarity here
below
& will report back if or when i do
thanx
>
> Anyway, I still believe this is unclear. The 1834 compact cites
you posted
> give specific reference to two levels of rights, a hierarchy as it
seems.
> One is an exclusive right of ownership (statehood, not fee
simple), the
> other is that of exclusive jurisdiction.
>
> I would maintain that the writers of the compact would not have
delineated
> these separate terms if they didn't mean separate things in the
first place.
> That's a fundamental principle in legal writing.
>
> The compact takes pains to prescribe the NJ-NY line as the
middle of the
> river and bay, but then gives NY continuing and exclusive
jurisdiction over
> not only the surface of the river all the way to the NJ shoreline,
but the
> land the water flows over up to the low water level on the NJ
bank.
>
> If "exclusive jurisdiction over" is the same as statehood, as you
infer,
> then there would not have been a delineation of the NJ
boundary as the
> middle of the Hudson and NY Bay, for that would be an
irreconcilable
> conflict -- the same piece of land should not lie within two
states at once!
>
> A good analogous example (in practicality although not
analogous in legal
> instrumentation) is Guantanamo Bay in Cuba (the land
adjoining it, which is
> a US military base). It is Cuban territory for sure -- in no way is
it
> "part" of the US -- but the US has complete and exclusive
jurisdiction over
> it. That's what I am trying to figure out for NJ-NY and Ellis
Island.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: acroorca2002 [mailto:orc@o...]
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 9:19 AM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] new njny
>
>
> kevin
> much intertwingling again below
>
> > > Yes, I would like to read them. Can you post them or give a
> > link? Also, is
> > > there any written record of the practices prior to 1834 that
led
> to
> > the
> > > Compact having to be written? IIRC, the compact was to
> > memorialize and
> > > standardize a set of past practices and customs regarding
> the
> > islands in NY
> > > Bay.
> >
> > you are probably right
>
> indeed you are definitely right
>
> & i omitted something important
>
> from the good book p79
> as follows
> btw please see messages 6 & 7 for the full skinny on bus&ss
>
>
> tho the original grant of 1606 from the english sovereign
covered
> the territory forming the present state of nj
> the first grant that directly related to nj was given in 1664 to lord
> john berkeley & sir george carteret by the duke of york
> 2 months before the setting out of his expedition to take
> possession of ny
>
> the following extract from that grant defines the boundaries of
nj
>
> all that tract of land adjacent to new england
> & lying & being to the westward of long island & manhitas
island
> & bounded on the east
> part by the main sea & part by hudsons river
>
> & hath upon the west delaware bay or river etc
>
> more below
>
> > abstracts from bus&ss 1976 pp76f
> >
> > njny was plainly stated in the grant by the duke of york to
> berkeley
> > & carteret in 1664
> >
> > the geodetic sector from njne to njnypa was run & confirmed
> > between 1719 & 1773
> >
> > in 1833 commissioners were appointed by ny & nj for the
> > settlement of the territorial limits & jurisdiction of the 2 states
> >
> > agreement reached & ratified & confirmed 1834
> > provided as follows
> >
> > article first
> > the boundary line between the 2 states of ny & nj
> > from a point in the middle of hudson river opposite the point
on
> > the west shore thereof in the 41st degree of north latitude
> > as heretofore ascertained & marked
> > aka njne
> > to the main sea
> > shall be the middle
> > of the said river
> > of the bay of new york
> > of the waters between etc etc
> > except as hereinafter otherwise particularly mentioned
> >
> > article second
> > the state of ny shall retain its present jurisdiction of & over
> > bedloes & ellis islands
> > & shall also retain exclusive jurisdiction of & over the other
> > islands lying in the waters abovementioned & now under the
> > jurisdiction of that state
> >
> > article third
> > the state of ny shall have & enjoy exclusive jurisdiction of &
over
> > all the waters of the bay of new york
> > & of & over all the waters of hudson river lying west of
> manhattan
> > island & south of the mouth of spuyten duyvel
> > & of & over the lands covered by the said waters
> > to the low water mark on the westerly or nj side thereof
> > subject to the following rights of property & of jurisdiction of
the
> > state of nj
> > that is to say
> > 1
> > the state of nj shall have the exclusive right of property in & to
> the
> > land under the water lying west of the middle of the bay of
new
> > york
> > & west of the middle of that part of the hudson river which lies
> > between manhattan island & nj
> > 2
> > the state of nj shall have the exclusive jurisdiction of & over
the
> > wharves docks improvements etc etc
> >
> >
> >
> > bedloes island & ellis island
> > tho on the nj side of the boundary
> > are under the jurisdiction of the state of ny
> > & are a part of greater new york city
> >
> > end of extracts
> >
> >
> > But the heart of the question remains unanswered:
> >
> > The compact as cited above declares two separate rights.
That
> of exclusive
> > property and that of exclusive jurisdiction. It does not say that
> Bedloes
> > and Ellis islands are in the state of NY. It merely says NY has
> exclusive
> > jurisdiction over them... and that has been my question, to
> determine
> > whether Ellis and bedloes can be considered a *part* of the
> state of NY, or
> > merely a part of the state of NJ over which NY from colonial
> times bullied
> > itself into having jurisdiction.
>
> well i think
> having exclusive property & exclusive jurisdiction rights over
any
> lands
> m e a n s
> these lands are in the state that has these rights
> & are certainly to be considered parts of it
> rather than of any neighboring or surrounding or distant state
> or of no state at all
>
> bullying apart
> which is always a political fact
> how else could you construe it
>
> > I note that the compact as cited also gives NY jurisdiction
over
> the Hudson
> > River and lands underneath it all the way to the low water
mark
> on the NJ
> > side of the river from Spuyten Duyvel south (Harlem River).
>
> here you have misconstrued this meaning from article third
> above
> for it is subject to enumerated restrictions which you have left
out
>
> that is just the way they constructed the deal
>
> rather elegantly
> as follows
>
> ny owns it all
> except nj owns half
> except ny owns these 2 exclaves within nj
>
> given the new quote i added here at the top
> about nj being bounded on the east by hudsons river
> per the duke of york in 1664
> who had himself just been granted all of hudsons river
> including specifically
> everything between the connecticut & delaware rivers
> by charles ii
> earlier in the year 1664
> it isnt really surprising that
> by the time of the inevitable 1834 compact & clarification
> ny managed to keep all the islands
> but nj managed to get half of the river
>
> given the reality of political bullying on top of the documentation
> this was actually a big win for nj
>
> > Yet all maps
> > show the state boundary line going down the middle of the
> Hudson west of
> > Manhattan Island.
>
> correct
>
> > So it seems evident though not clear to me that the intent of
all
> this is
> > NOT to make Ellis and Bedloes a part of the state of NY, but
to
> memorialize
> > and formalize NY's historic dominance over all maritime
activity
> in the
> > waters of NY Bay -- all but the wharves and docks extending
> from above the
> > low water line on the NJ shore.
> >
> > Agree?
>
> no
> for as i think you may see clearly now
> the historic dominance was entirely legal
> bullying or no
> & i say this as a proud native underdog of nj
>
> & thanx for the many great questions
>
>
>
>
>
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