Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: zeroing in on breintenstein
Date: Mar 29, 2001 @ 16:20
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
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back to the roman ages would indeed be interesting dear asterix
especially since interprovincial boundaries were generally just the
domesticated successors of formerly external frontiers

& all the more interesting on top of this rocks druidic prehistory
as a working menhir

for we have seen many places that have lost their markers
& many markers displaced
but only this one marker that has truly lost its place
in the passing of millennia

or perhaps those 2 others around wingen may also qualify

but sheesh i would love to get a look at them too


& with breitensteins crucifiction so modern as to mark only the latest of
its megacyclical makeovers
it is still a highly venerable if not the veritable working rock of ages


also we may imagine & perhaps assume
until positive text evidence emerges
say from that hundred volume exhaustive boundary text encyclopedia
that this stone entered the age of modern boundary treaty making
as a monumental paragon of demarcation
rather than as just any old rock on the roadside

& since it apparently continues to mark the equivalent of a state line in
france
it seems to me that correctly dating it is not so much a task of proving
its authenticity as a working rock
tho frankly we still havent even done that yet
as it is a task of finding a time
since the advent of the modern age of boundary rocks
now generally thought to have begun in the 12th century in some places
when it wasnt a working rock

& the maps at least make it seem that such a time of temporary retirement
did exist for this stone
& perhaps for all 3 of these ancient fellow line stones
during at least several centuries within the interior of the holy roman empire
& coincidentally overlapping the period of transition into the modern era
until some time in the 13th century when the disintegration of the empire
appears to have created at least the geographical possibility of its or
their doing modern international boundary work

so my admittedly still wild & premature guess is that this rock was
restored to world class service for at least a third tour of duty between
the 13th & 17th centuries

m


>
>At this site:
><http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mairie.wingen-moder/1_patrim.htm>
>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mairie.wingen-moder/1_patrim.htm (site of the
>municipality of Wingen-sur-Moder), there is talk of three stones:
>Breintenstein (a.k.a. Twelve Apostles Stone), Spitzstein, and
>Drei-Peterstein. It sais here: 'In the time of the Roman Alsace,
>Wingen was part of the homestead of the people of Triboques. On the
>side of the old Via Bassoniaca, a forest road between the province of
>Belgica and that of Germania, its limits are marked by menhirs: the
>Spitzstein, the Drei-Peterstein, and the Breintenstein. In the 18th
>century the Breintenstein was transformed in a cross, pending over the
>figures of the twelve apostles that are sculpted on the 4 sides of the
>stone, hence its name of Twelve Apostles Stone. The Drei-Peterstein
>marks the boundary of the seignories of Bitche, Lichtenberg, and La
>Petite-Pierre.' [in German: Bitsch, Lichtenberg, Luetzelstein].
>
>So, back to Roman ages?? That would be something...
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> the exact locality of the stone of the 12 apostles mentioned & shown
>in
>> message 1642 is evidently too tiny to appear on most maps
>>
>> but you can get an idea of its approximate location along the modern
>> departmental boundary mentioned by peter in that message
>> if you type in wingen sur moder france
>> at <http://www.mapquest.com> http://www.mapquest.com
>> & notice the blue line running between the resulting target star & a
>place
>> called meisenthal lying just to its north
>>
>> & you can then zoom out to find yourself near the northeast corner
>of
>> modern france
>>
>> this is an area that appears to have been situated on or near the
>boundary
>> between the duchies of lorraine & swabia
>> both within the holy roman empire until some time after 1200
>> <http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1241/nouest12.htm>
>>http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1241/nouest12.htm
>> when lorraine seems to have emerged as an independent country
>> & when the alsatian area was divided into many fiefs & independent
>cities
>>
>> maps for the period of the disintegration of the holy roman empire
>> beginning with 1270 & continuing thru 1328 & 1382 until some time
>before 1430
>> all at <http://dalmatia.net/belmonte/middle_ages/index.html>
>>http://dalmatia.net/belmonte/middle_ages/index.html
>> make an international divide between lorraine & alsace seem quite
>possible
>> as early as the 13th & 14th centuries
>> but it is still far from certain whether & when any cleavage
>actually
>> occurred in the precise location where the stone is standing
>>
>> the situation appears very complex & shifty
>> & subject to various interpretations besides
>> & i am certainly already in far beyond my depth
>>
>> nevertheless i am hoping this modest reconnaissance helps to inform
>&
>> narrow the search for the hard data needed to know exactly when this
>rock
>> performed international duty
>>
>> m
>
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