Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Ile de la Conference
Date: Mar 16, 2001 @ 21:10
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
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>
>A nice but small picture of Donostia Airport Runway (with in the
>background Hendaye-Plage) at:
><http://www.bidasoacongress.com/euskera/home/bidtxin.htm>
>http://www.bidasoacongress.com/euskera/home/bidtxin.htm .
>
>The pierheads seem to be not of equal length. Would this then mean
>that the upper boundary of the Baie du Figuier is an oblique line? See
>the top two pictures at
><http://www.bidasoacongress.com/euskera/home/entorno.htm>
>http://www.bidasoacongress.com/euskera/home/entorno.htm . I can see it
>on the topo map, too.
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> ok wonderful
>> that confirms & fills in a good deal
>>
>> & no problem about the tripuncticides
>>
>> i figure i killed at least 150 tps myself out in the ocean
>yesterday
>>
>> best of all
>> from the ashes here arises possibly the worlds first full semiclave
>> it being both a semienclave & a semiexclave
>> or as you say an enclaved condominium
>> a condition at least i dont think i have seen anywhere before
>>
>>
>> & as for esesfrfr2
>> glad to restore it with you from the more complicated fallback
>position
>> between the railroad bridges to the simpler & first guessed position
>> between the pierheads
>> or perhaps they are really only jetties on revisitation
>> but to the median point between their tips in any case
>> tho i would do this more on the strength of my original hunch
>> before i ever studied any of these maps
>> than because i trust the visible or the unseen portions of the map
>in
>> message 1481 or the zoomable one in message 1555
>> as these have already proved unreliable in several ways
>>
>>
>> so in sum & review
>> the only known remaining esesfrfr tripoints are now looking like a
>well
>> matched pair of median points situated with elegant simplicity at
>both the
>> front & the back entrances to the bay
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>> >
>> >I think it's _you_ who's straightening _me_ out now, Michael. I was
>> >looking at the Descheemaeker map
>> >in my msg. 1481, but according to all the written stuff I have read
>about
>> >it, it might be the way
>> >you describe it.
>> >
>> >But reading the Bayonne treaty again, I come to a different
>conclusion
>> >still, which could mean there
>> >are no tripoints, but an enclaved condominium!
>> >
>> >"Art.9
>> >>From Chapitelacoarria to the mouth of the Bidasoa, at the Rade du
>> >>Figuier, the middle of the main
>> >stream of the waters of this river, at low tide, will form the line
>of
>> >separation of the two
>> >Sovereignties, without changing anything about the actual
>nationality of
>> >the islands, the Ile des
>> >Faisans continuing to belong to two Nations".
>> >
>> >So there is talk of the main stream. Nowadays, this is the branch
>on the
>> >French side. But this
>> >hasn't always been the case. At one time, Descheemaeker writes, the
>French
>> >branch almost
>> >disappeared, and some work had to be done in order for the island
>to
>> >remain an island. But since
>> >then all sorts of land reclaiming works along the river have taken
>place,
>> >and given the fact that
>> >there are a number of islands in the river, the main stream
>probably
>> >changed over the years. I think
>> >(but this isn't based on anything I have read) that the main stream
>at the
>> >time of the signing in
>> >1856 is the important one here, and that the border hasn't changed
>since
>> >(in that respect. What I
>> >mean is: not changed except when explicitely done in other treaties
>or
>> >similar documents).
>> >
>> >So let's assume that the French branch was the main one in 1856.
>Then the
>> >condominium is entirely
>> >surrounded by Spanish internal waters.
>> >
>> >Sorry for killing off the tripoints. But a centre line in any river
>branch
>> >just doesn't touch any
>> >island's shoreline!
>> >
>> >Now for the Txingudi bay (the part between the main railway bridge
>and the
>> >pierheads: Maybe it was
>> >at one stage included in the Figuier condominium, but according to
>the
>> >topo map (IGN 1:25k) not
>> >anymore. A clear boundary line has been drawn all the way to the
>> >pierheads, and even a little beyond
>> >that, but that last part doesn't count I would think. The boundary
>seems
>> >to follow the centre of the
>> >stream at low tide, but generally passes very close to the spanish
>shore.
>> >This seems to be partly
>> >because the Spanish have done a lot of land reclaiming here,
>building the
>> >runway for the
>> >Donostia/San Sebastián airport at Hondarribia there (very
>Hongkong-style).
>> >If an aircraft overshoots
>> >the runway and ends up a couple of meters further in the water, it
>> >definitely has crossed the
>> >border! By the way, there is an international agreement between
>France and
>> >Spain on the crossing of
>> >French airspace for aircraft in and out of Donostia airport. The
>only
>> >approach is from sea, flying
>> >over Hendaye Plage, and then over Txingudi bay. It is a tiny
>airport, but
>> >can take (and takes! I've
>> >seen it) aircraft up to DC 9's.
>> >
>> >Peter S.
>> >
>> >michael donner wrote:
>> >
>> >> first thanx for the tactful hint peter
>> >> as all these franco spanish condo tripoints could be called
>frfrspsp only
>> >> in my fractured isofips
>> >> a coinage as adulterated as punctology itself
>> >> & of course they should all be changed to esesfrfr in the kings
>iso
>> >> tho the suffixes 1 2 3 & 4 can still probably continue to serve
>pro tem
>> >> to indicate the generally ascending &or eastward progression of
>the 4 such
>> >> points you have turned up so far
>> >> of which i take it we were talking here about number 3 in the
>line
>> >>
>> >> your observations themselves are a little puzzling to me tho
>because i
>> >> thought you had indicated earlier that the all dry or upper condo
>is the
>> >> island itself
>> >> or is coterminous with the island
>> >> & also that the international boundary is defined in such a way
>as to meet
>> >> this condo boundary precisely at the upstream & downstream
>extremities of
>> >> the island
>> >> or at least to make a sort of wedge out of it i think you said
>> >>
>> >> your map in <<http://www.egroups.com/message/boundarypoint/1481>
>>http://www.egroups.com/message/boundarypoint/1481>
>> >><http://www.egroups.com/message/boundarypoint/1481>
>>http://www.egroups.com/message/boundarypoint/1481 makes this
>> >> pretty clear too
>> >> if it can be believed
>> >>
>> >> perhaps i have only imagined some of these details
>> >> but all together they are what led me to predict that the 2 ile
>de la
>> >> conference tripoints at least would be easy to put a finger on
>> >>
>> >> & your pic in message 1703
>> >> <<http://www.originepyrenees.com/images_mag/ile.jpg>
>>http://www.originepyrenees.com/images_mag/ile.jpg>
>> >><http://www.originepyrenees.com/images_mag/ile.jpg>
>>http://www.originepyrenees.com/images_mag/ile.jpg
>> >> now that i compare it to the map
>> >> appears to give a very good view indeed of tripoint esesfrfr3 at
>left
>> >> as well as a pretty fair view of tripoint esesfrfr4 at right
>> >>
>> >> however if the international boundary does cleave invariably to a
>thalweg
>> >> or thalwegs
>> >> as you now seem to be indicating
>> >> then it couldnt & wouldnt even touch the island
>> >> & if it does describe the center line of the river invariably
>> >> as you may also mean
>> >> then it could only strike the island by chance if indeed it did
>so at all
>> >> & would thus in just about every possible case not produce the
>neat results
>> >> i had envisioned
>> >> & on which i based the guesses made both above & below
>> >>
>> >> your guess that it might be off frame at left would place it
>within the
>> >>river
>> >> where i was least expecting it based on the above info
>> >> & moreover you seem to be talking about 3 thalwegs here in all
>> >> as if to indicate this is a river confluence rather than an
>ordinary
>> >>island
>> >> & i know there was some reference made to changes in the
>river but
>> >> but perhaps you can straighten me out here again too
>> >>
>> >> m
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Ile de la Conference: you're looking eastwards. So the point
>towards
>> >> >you is the westernmost point (frfreses[number]). Still, it being
>at
>> >> >the meeting point of the center lines (or thalwegs) of the two
>> >> >branches of the Bidasoa and the center line/thalweg of the
>> >> >continuation of that river, it might be that it is just beyond
>this
>> >> >picture at your left.
>> >> >
>> >> >Peter S.
>> >> >
>> >> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > evidently our first close look here at either frfrspsp3 or
>> >> >frfrspsp4
>> >> >> as i cant tell which end of the ile de conference this is
>> >> >>
>> >> >> m
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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