thank you brendan also for this partial concession to my ordinary
pedestrian usage of the clave words
but neither my dogeared american heritage dictionary nor i can swallow your
simultaneous concession to davids fine point also given below
hahaha
that books as well as my own beliefs & models are as follows
enclave
a country or part of a country lying wholly within the boundaries of another
so in normal straight talk
san marino is an enclave in or within italy
& campione is an italian enclave in or within switzerland
& no need to even think about an enclave of anything
for that would technically be a abuse of the word of
btw these correspond to rolfs types 1 & 3 respectively
tho when he says btw he usually means between
exclave
a portion of a country which is isolated in alien territory
but not expressly or necessarily within a single alien territory
& it even adds a map with the legend
cabinda is an exclave of angola
tho it does commit the blunder of verbally placing it in congo kinshasa
& there is no real need to think about an exclave in anything
& to do so would technically be an abuse of the word in
this entire exclave word corresponds to rolfs type 2
& thats it
no distinctly different usages than these basic ones are even suggested
& to me all of this simply says that in normally understandable parlance
an enclave may be an entire country or a part of a country
but it must always be surrounded by a single other country
& an exclave must always be a part of a country
but it may or may not be surrounded by a single other country
so these words really do have a simple flipflop mutuality
but it is not the same simple flipflop mutuality sophisticated people like
us often expect them to have & frankly overburden them with
really i swear there is no finesse or syntactical vagary at work here at all
& indeed i can sometimes hardly figure out what you all & all your
authorities are talking about
hahaha
just my 2 bits toward the general food fight
nice smorgasbord jesper
m
>
>No. No claves, ex or en.
>The mainland bit i would call a fragment of the island, as the island has
>the larger population and more importantly the capital. The mainland is
>larger in area, but still a fragment, as it is peripheral.
>***********
>David pulled me up on a fine point:
>an enclave or exclave must be surrounded entirely by one other unit.
>An enclave is inside you and an exclave is a PIECE of you inside someome
>else.
>Eq. Guinea is and has neither of these.
>
>By definition, agreed on by Robinson, Catudal, Farran, Raton, etc
>An exclave is a piece of one country/political unit separated form that unit
>and totally surrounded by ONE other unit.
>therefore it must be:
>a) a piece of a larger entity
>b) landlocked and 100% surrounded by another unit.
>Jungholz is not an exclave as it has a point connection with mainland
>Austria. But being a singularity is very interesting nonetheless.
>
>I dislike the distinction of en and ex claves, and tend to call both
>enclaves.
>
>Why?
>Because traditionally, Llivia is an exclave of Spain but an enclave of
>France.
>BUT that makes it also a French exclave and a Spanish enclave form the
>spanish and French points of view respectively.
>So if it is a Spanish enclave AND a Spanish exclave, a French enclave AND a
>French exclave, what's the point of the distinction?
>It gets easily lost in English syntax.
>
>Thus I prefer not to draw the distinction in that way, as I think it serves
>little purpose.
>
>B
>
>
>
>>From: michael donner <m@...>
>>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Largest enclave
>>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:07:46 -0500
>>
>>this is good stuff brendan
>>& the distinctions are useful
>>
>>are you saying then that you think equatorial guinea does have an exclave
>>as the question was about claves rather than fragments
>>
>>m
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >I think the martimie terr is an EEZ, and not territorial sea.
>> >Which means a foreign naval presence can move through it.
>> >But the point of rragments is that they disrupt normal administration and
>> >travel and trade etc because there is a rupture of foreign territory or
>>sea
>> >or lake or unbridged river.
>> >The greater this is in width, the harder the administration.
>> >
>> >Even in territorial sea, someone can come in and suck up the water, and
>>you
>> >can't do anything about it. But if someone comes on to your land and
>>starts
>> >digging holes you can.
>> >
>> >Holes of high seas within an EEZ create administrative problems as ANYONE
>> >must be given access to those holes, which allows them to fish illegally
>>in
>> >your waters on the way through, and it is harder to manage stocks of fish
>> >etc because of that free-fishing hole.
>> >
>> >Once islands like Denmark's are connected by bridges, the administration
>> >problems begin to disappear.
>> >B
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: michael donner <m@...>
>> >>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> >>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> >>Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Largest enclave
>> >>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:11:27 -0500
>> >>
>> >>i have a map by prescott that shows the 2 apparent fragments of
>>equatorial
>> >>guinea to be connected by maritime territory & thus not to really be
>> >>fragments at all
>> >>at least no more than sjaelland & continental denmark are fragments
>> >>nor than any offshore island within the territorial waters of denmark or
>> >>any other country is a fragment
>> >>
>> >>m
>> >>
>> >>by contrast i would say the danish island of bornholm is a true fragment
>> >>because in this special case foreign maritime territory does cut it off
>> >>completely from the rest of danish territory
>> >>
>> >>or have i missed your point
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >No. Enclaves have to be totally surrounded by one other entity.
>>Eq.G.'s
>> >> >mainland is coastal and borders two other countries on land.
>> >> >However, it is an interesting FRAGMENT, as although larger in area,
>>and
>> >> >'mainland', it is smaller in population than Rio Muni island, AND it
>>does
>> >> >not have the capital.
>> >> >Other examples are:
>> >> >Malasia, where E.Malaysia is larger, but has smaller pop and not the
>> >>capital
>> >> >Samoa, where the smaller island has the larger popn and the capital
>> >> >Pakistan 1947-1971, where the western part was larger and had the
>> >>capital,
>> >> >but the East had more population.
>> >> >Denmark, where the capital is on an island, not the larger mainland.
>> >> >
>> >> >Brendan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>From: "Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen" <jesniel@...>
>> >> >>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> >> >>To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
>> >> >>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Largest enclave
>> >> >>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:48:13 +0100
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Which is the largest enclave in relations to the main area?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>How about Equatorial Guninea?
>> >> >>
>> >> >><<<http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>> >><http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>> >> >><<http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>> >><http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >>If the capital is on an island so far from the main land is then the
>> >>main
>> >> >>land an enclave?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Jesper
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
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