Michael, good point to note that course lines are not identical to
thalwegs. But surely, the proof of this pudding in this case would lie in
the exact wording of the legal descriptions of the various county
boundaries, and in particular the definition of the Yakima-Kittitas line
about the head of its creek, and the King-Pierce line above the head of
its creek. Any idea on where to get legal descriptions of the boundaries
of the counties of Washington?
David
King - Kittitas - Pierce - Yakima
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, acroorca2002 wrote:
> great paper david
> & i am pleased jacks fantastic discovery here satisfies your needs
>
> also i realize you are working from a theoretical basis
> & that your modeling is intended to smooth over any rough edges
> & indeed it seems to me to be successful for that very reason
>
> yet from a punctological point of view
> a primary thalweg line can only be traced to its true source
> experientially
> naturally
> inch by inch
> & in the upstream direction only
> & cant simply be declared to fall by extra fiat as it were
> defined as a course line now & no longer even a true thalweg
> from any particularly convenient point
> including even the low point of a saddle
> deliciously simplifying & satisfying as that is
> because in reality waters are shed from above the saddle as well
> & unless you actually perform the sawanabori uphill you can never be
> sure you are upon the main stem at any given moment
>
> from my own observations & tries at doing just this sort of thing
> i believe if we stood at naches pass in a heavy rain we would even be
> able to see the trickles that fall in both directions from the saddle
> there as tributaries to larger trickles that fall from elsewhere on
> the transverse ridge
>
> so you may pronounce your extra fiat that will make this a perfect
> quadripoint
> but i still dont see how there is a true natural fiat quadripoint by
> your earlier definition
> as indeed there might well have been at a mountain peak
>
> m
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., David Mark <dmark@g...> wrote:
> > Thanks, Jack, this IS an instance of what I was looking for,
> although I
> > was imagining 4 ridges coming to a peak, and not two ridges and two
> > course lines coming to a saddle.
> >
> > There is a theory of continuous, smooth surfaces laid our by Alred
> Cayley
> > in 1859, and the famous physicist James Clerk Maxwell in 1870, that
> shows
> > that at any saddle point (such as Naches pass), there in fact are
> two
> > course lines that must emanate from the exact point of the saddle,
> as well
> > as two ridge lines running up to peaks. According to that theory
> this
> > should indeed be a perfect quadripoint.
> >
> > Cayley, A., 1859. On contour lines and slope lines. Philosophical
> > Magazine, 18, 264-268.
> >
> > Maxwell, J. C., 1870. On hills and dales. Philosophical Magazine,
> vol. 40,
> > 421-427.
> >
> > For far more on this topic, see the appropriate section in
> >
> http://wings.buffalo.edu/philosophy/faculty/smith/articles/topography.
> pdf
> >
> > David
> >
> > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, acroorca2002 wrote:
> >
> > > jack
> > > apologies
> > > as my library computer was shooting blanks that day
> > >
> > > but i think the message was simply that even if kikipiya isnt a
> > > perfect fiat quadripoint there might still be a washington statute
> > > that makes it a legal quadripoint
> > >
> > > & probably nobody but us would think of drawing such fine
> > > distinctions anyway
> > > so lets not write it off yet from our list of true megapoints
> > >
> > >
> > > also in the unlikely event that it or they are marked
> > > i still doubt anyone would think of erecting 2 monuments
> > > especially on public land & in such a remote place
> > > when even a small marker would probably suffice to physically
> cover
> > > both points so close together
> > > if they are even distinguishable
> > > which they probably arent
> > >
> > > all in all a pretty ridiculous situation
> > > & i am sure glad we discovered it
> > >
> > > m
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Jack Parsell" <jparsell@n...> wrote:
> > > > Michael,
> > > > I agree that it is not highly probable that there is a little
> pool
> > > > of water in the pass with the water having difficulty deciding
> > > > which way to descend, although I've seen that in the
> Adirondacks.
> > > > The distance between the 4920 ft. contour lines on each side of
> the
> > > > pass is less than 200 ft. and the drainages line up
> > > cartographically,
> > > > but I guess a single precise point is too much to hope for. It
> > > looks
> > > > like pretty rough terrain with 2000 ft gain in elevation from
> the
> > > > nearest paved road so I don't plan to check it out. It would be
> > > > nice to know though.
> > > > Jack
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: acroorca2002 [mailto:orc@o...]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 5:18 PM
> > > > To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: TopoZone - Washington quad county
> point
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > jack
> > > > i still like this just as much but my nearsightedness had missed
> > > the
> > > > fact that these are 2 opposite watersheds descending from that
> pass
> > > > for i was imagining it was just one river running thru a gap
> > > > oops
> > > >
> > > > now that you have said this tho
> > > > i have to think a purely fiat quadripoint is technically as
> > > unlikely
> > > > here as on that mountaintop in france without a little fudging
> or
> > > > coaxing
> > > > because it is almost inconceivable that 2 sawanaboris should
> ascend
> > > > to meet at a single precise point along a crest line
> > > > but they would by their nature produce 2 distinct fiat tripoints
> > > > however close together
> > > > m
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "Jack Parsell" <jparsell@n...> wrote:
> > > > > This quad-county point of King - Kittitas - Pierce - Yakima
> > > > > counties is at N 47 05' 14", W 121 22' 42" at Naches Pass at
> > > > > about 4920 ft. National Forest Development Rd.#70 from Naches
> > > > > Pass Campground runs to within a little over a mile from the
> > > > > quad-point. The Naches Trail and a jeep road cross the pass
> and
> > > > > the Pacific Crest trail passes about 1/2 mile west. It appears
> > > > > the King-Kittitas and Pierce-Yakima lines are on a ridge. The
> > > > > King-Pierce line is the beginning of Meadow Creek drainage and
> > > > > the Kittitas-Yakima line is the beginning of Middle Fork
> Little
> > > > > Naches River drainage. Thus it is an intersection of a ridge
> > > > > line and two drainages all of which are natural features.
> > > > > I belive that is what David was looking for.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jack
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>