Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: divided islands-an answer
Date: Apr 28, 2001 @ 17:38
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
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>
>The Ile de la Conference being an enclaved condominium is really an
>assumption I made on the basis of the fact the boundary in the
>Bidasoa river is defined as being the thalweg of the main course of
>the river (and therefore no island can possibly be in the way). But
>it is an assumption, and I don't know which branch of the Bidasoa at
>the island was the main one at the time of the signing of the treaty.
>Nowadays, it is definitely the northern branch. But I don't think the
>border changes every time the main branch changes from the south to
>the north or v.v. But I like to stress here that I didn't see
>everything in writing yet, and it might even be the case that at the
>location of the island, the thalweg principle is not valid anymore
>(although I think this is not a very likely possibility). Anyway, the
>Bidasoa is a special river, because, although it is divided between
>France and Spain, there are special regulations regarding the river
>between Chapitelacoarria and the Baie du Figuier, that give it some
>condominial treats with regards to fishing and navigation.
>
>Or, to put it differently: the island is a boundary symbol, sitting
>right on the boundary, being the river. The river is a very visible
>boundary. Of course, it is a very broad line, and in reality also
>divided by a line. But this line is not visible, and therefore of no
>use for symbolical purposes. Unless you are going to put buoys in the
>middle of the river. But that would really be a case of overkill. It
>was all about being good neighbours. Good neighbours don't need this,
>especially since the regime on the Bidasoa as a whole is already well
>described.
>
>Peter S.
>
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> exactly peter
>> but here is the part of your or probably rather descheemaekers
>symbolism
>> i still dont get
>>
>> i understand that the condo island functions as a symbolic boundary
>monument
>> no problem
>> that is as a monument to & witness of the esfr boundary
>>
>> but since the island isnt situated upon the boundary line itself
>> the way real boundary islets are
>> say in scandinavia
>> but is rather an enclave & without condo tripoints
>> it seems to me not a hyper monument at all but rather a hypo
>monument
>>
>> & i am left wondering how something that is physically off line &
>off point
>> can adequately symbolize or epitomize or in any other real way
>recapitulate
>> what is on line & on point
>>
>> i mean arent symbols supposed to be true representations of truths
>> rather than muffed representations of misses
>>
>> for otherwise what is the point
>>
>> m
>>
>> >
>> >That is exactly what they are. See messages 1936, 1948 (the link to
>> >Statens Kartverk) and 1952.
>> >
>> >The symbolism of good neighbourhood Peter H. mentions is another
>sign
>> >we are not dealing with a boundary drawn without knowing what is in
>> >the way. It is interesting to read in the Descheemaeker article
>that
>> >at first, the Scandinavian solution was considered for the Ile de
>la
>> >Conference, actually dividing the island between Spain and France,
>> >but that in the end the condominium solution was chosen, because
>this
>> >was seen to be a continuation of the de facto situation, where the
>> >island was used for international conferences and similar meetings
>> >for which you need ground that is more or less 'neutral'.
>> >
>> >So the Ile de la Conference can be considered a very big boundary
>> >marker, in function similar to the St. Martins Stone (also a place
>> >where international treaties are concluded or renewed).
>> >
>> >A real symbol not only of the dividing nature of boundaries, but
>also
>> >of being good neighbours.
>> >
>> >And another thing: "conflicts over ownership make no sense", like
>> >Peter H. said, says a lot about the Scandinavians themselves; more
>> >often you hear retorics about "not one inch of the holy ground of
>our
>> >fathers will be yielded" in the rest of the world!
>> >
>> >Peter S.
>> >
>> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., David Mark <dmark@g...> wrote:
>> >> Are the divided islands in Scandanavia TURNING POINTS in the
>> >boundaries?
>> >> With the precise turning point at the peak or center of the
>> >island? If
>> >> so, Peter's boundary marker theory seems obviously correct.
>> >>
>> >> But if the boundary is a straight line cutting the island, it
>can be
>> >> hardly anything other than a co-incidence.
>> >>
>> >> Islands cut by boundaries can be expected anywhere that a fiat
>> >boundary,
>> >> drawn on a map without knowing the details on the ground,
>crosses a
>> >region
>> >> that contains islands. Lakes with islands are relatively rare on
>a
>> >global
>> >> scale, most of them are in glaciated areas: Scandanavia and
>Canada
>> >and the
>> >> former Soviet Union. Fiat boundaries should divide islands by
>chance
>> >> mainly in those regions.
>> >>
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Peter Hering wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Hi Arif,
>> >> > concerning divided islands in Scandinavia,
>> >> > this is my guess:
>> >> > 1- they act as boundary markers - easy to
>> >> > see, instead of buoys...
>> >> > 2- since most of Scandinavian border regions
>> >> > are inhabited by only very few people,
>> >> > conflicts over ownership make no sense...
>> >> > 3- they symbolize good neighbourhood!
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway, Jesper and I are planning a short
>> >> > 2 day expedition to the southern part of the
>> >> > SeNo border and plant BoundaryPoint's flag
>> >> > on these islands - wanna come...?!?
>> >> > Regards - good weekend
>> >> > Peter H.
>> >> >
>> >> > -------Original Message-------
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Arif Samad
>> >> > Date: Friday, April 27, 2001 23:49:57
>> >> > To: BoundaryPoint@y...
>> >> > Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Indian mess - French to blame?
>> >> >
>> >> > Brendan, Thank you for the research. I guess
>> >> > Goretty disappeared as an enclave at some time. I
>> >> > have not been able to find the 1991 census handbook,
>> >> > so you are definitely more current.
>> >> > I should have rephrased my question on divided
>> >> > islands. I noticed there are other islands that are
>> >> > divided, but the big islands mentioned were divided
>> >> > with full knowledge of colonial consequences. They
>> >> > are big islands that had to be divided as different
>> >> > groups were in control of parts before the islands
>> >> > were eventually divided and the division couldn't be
>> >> > circumvented. Only US-Canada and Scandinavian borders
>> >> > seem to divide tiny islands that could easily be
>> >> > circumnavigated by the boundary lines. I wonder why
>> >> > that is. Mike's explanation makes a lot of sense
>> >> > though. Then again, all of them could just be
>> >> > mistakes.
>> >> > Brendan, don't you have the points for Baarle?
>> >> > Maybe you could create excel charts of the small
>> >> > enclaves in Baarle like ones done for Cyprus.
>> >> > Arif
>> >> >
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