Hi everybody,
Regarding the CAFR SPM/NFLD boundary, here is my point of view:
1. OK, It does exist a wet boundary.
2. It does exist (yet theorical since it is located on a rock
shore...) a wet-dry boundary, the wet side being French, the dry
side being Canadian, on both Western and Southwestern extremities of
L'Enfant Perdu de l'Ile Verte and the Western island of Little Green
Island Group.
3. Does "island" in the 1972-official Agreement ("île", in the
official French version of that Agreement) deal with any rock, or
only with real island? I mean, could we consider that the rocks in
the area of Little Green Island are real islands themselves, or only
rocks?
4. I have requested the French national authorities in SPM, asking
them to confirm to me whether or not they consider some slands/rocks
to be under French sovereignty.
5.
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/ls57.ht
m DMAHC 14340 chart is not clear enough to state where does the
boundary pass through, in that area.
6. Canadian Hydrograhic Service chart 405 seems to me clearer, but I
did not succeed in finding that chart. When I was in New Brunswick,
I tried to find it at Fredericton but they did not have it in
libraries. Maybe in NFLD or somewhere in Ontario...
7. I have seen, in Canada, another map, about 1:25000 scale and a
Canadian-made chart, giving the boundary line. However, this map was
not as efficient as the French IGN 1:25000 chart, as the French
chart shows all the rocks (although not showing the boundary line)
while this Canadian map show the line but only two [!] islands for
Little Green Island group. So OK, all the islands were on the
Canadian side.... but with only 2 islets this can not be considered
as accurate, can it?
In addition to this, I guess Canadian maps (official or not) would
place Green Island area in Canada, while French maps would place it
in France or for half part in France... Perhaps international maps,
foreign charts, would be more realistic...
8. It is right that a "Sea boundary" is not a land border, so... we
could consider that only the waters are divided, not indeed the
land. This would let one rock be French, or Canadian, or divided by
both of them, but the waters around this island part being under
another rule than the island part itself. I am not sure I am clear
enough. In anycase, I do not suppose this suggestion be reasonable,
since it would be really silly and I do not think the boundary is
such silly in the reality.
9. According to the 1972-Agreement, all the rock would be Canadian
(exept the shore on the two mentionned-islets), if we consider that
being inside the Canadian waters, they must be under the same
sovereignty - but once again, I agree a sea boundary can be
different than a land boundary, e.g. with Enfant perdu de l'Ile
Verte which is Canadian but has, let's say, a kind of French
shore... This Enfant perdu de l'Ile Verte could have been divided in
two parts, leaving one shore being French (Western part) and the
other Canadian (Eastern part)...
10. In the previous Traities (Utrecht, Versailles, Vienna, Paris,
and London convention of 1904), I have never read that Green Island
(and the island group) was divided between French and Britain, as
well as I have never read that these islands were given to one
country or the other. All these agreements between France and
Britain only tell us about "les îles de Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon"
(St.Pierre-&-Miquelon islands), and this meant not only St.Pierre
island and Miquelon island, but also Langlade island (Petite
Miquelon, now part of Miquelon but at that time two separate
islands) + other smaller islands (which were not mentioned in the
agreement) like île aux Marins (île aux chiens), île aux Pigeons,
île aux Vainqueurs, Grand Colombier, and other rocks.
It can be considered Green Island and Little Green Island + the
rocks in that area (Little Green Island group) were included in the
island surrounding SPM, and so stay French, as well as it can not be
considered.
There were not details, in the treaties...
11. However, French SPM inhabitants have always believed and for
some still believe (although we here know it is not the case since
1972) that Green Island +was divided+ between France and Britain,
later Canada, the 1908-lighthouse being on the Canadian side.
In addition, the 1907 French channel between SPM and NFLD (of which
I have a chart) divided Green Island in two parts, one being French,
the other British.
For these reasons, we can, I assume, considere that +it has existed+
a real land border (although not marked with boundary stones in
situ) between France and UK, and later between France and Canada, on
Green Island, until 1972. I assume, since 1972, Green Island is
Canadian in its whole part.
12. It is said that, in 1908, where the NFLD lighthouse was built on
Green Island, the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Paris seemed
to accept - yet not officially) that Green Island was included in
the lands which were given to and later kept by Britain along with
Newfoundland and New France.
"La question fut soumise au ministre des Colonies et à celui des
Affaires Etrangères français qui, sans se prononcer formellement à
ce sujet, semblèrent admettre que l'Ile Verte et les petits ilots
voisins étaient compris parmi les îles adjacentes à Terre-Neuve,
cédées définitivement par la France à l'Angleterre aux termes de
l'article 13 du traité d'Utrecth en 1713 et du Traité du 3 septembre
1783 et que, par suite, cette puissance était investie du droit de
souveraineté à son égard malgré l'absence de toutes stipulations
expresses à ce sujet. Le Gouvernement français ne s'opposa donc pas
à la construction de la sirène à brume puisqu'il n'était pas dans
les intentions des autorités terre-neuviennes de modifier les droits
de pêche dans ces parages". I disagree with this. Perhaps the French
Government had, at that time, seemed, to consider Green Island area
was not French, but it is not based on official grounds. No treaty
has said this, no agreement has said the opposite version.
IMHO before 1972 nothing official could say Green Island area was
French, or Canadian (British), or divided between the two countries.
However, the local tradition and custom stated Green Island was
divided between France and UK (Canada). The local tradition did not
say the island was French in its whole land, but that it was
divided. Why did they suggest it was divided (instead of being
French in its whole part?). I think this can be a clue, if not an
evidence, that something like a land boundary did really exist on
this island.
Of course, this island was so small and unsignificant (and not
important) for London as well as for Paris (and even for SPM or
NFLD - except in NFLD battle against smugglers), that nobody in UK
nor in Continental France had ever have the idea to clarify this
land boundary... until 1972.
Xavier
Re: [BoundaryPoint] Green Island Ile Verte St.Pierre-Miquelon cafr
indeed xavier we would love to see any or all the maps
you mention but the best map we have actually seen to
date is
i believe
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/ls57.html
& by way of directly answering your question
the most comprehensive interpretation of all the data
we have reviewed
including the actual treaty text
is still nothing more than this half educated & half
bizarre guess
or rather purely deductive description
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/8367
which however several careful members have concurred
with or subscribed to