Subject: AW: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Seborga's currency
Date: Feb 08, 2005 @ 06:15
Author: Wolfgang Schaub ("Wolfgang Schaub" <Wolfgang.Schaub@...>)
Prev    Post in Topic    Next [All Posts]
Prev    Post in Time    Next


"My conclusions about all of this are that the Euros authorized by
Europe (Munzrecht, in German)) are "national Euros", in that they are
issued by countries outside of the Euro Zone": Len, all you say is correct, but I fail to understand your conclusion (maybe my logics are under-developed). I concur with your view as the "national Euros" of the mini-states are concerned, but still I do not regard the Euros of the Euro zone as national ones.
 
To complicate the matter even further: Can you develop some thoughts about the Euro used by Montenegro?
 
Wolfgang
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: L. A. Nadybal [mailto:lnadybal@...]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Februar 2005 02:50
An: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Seborga's currency


In further researching the subject of "National Euros" vs. "A Single
Euro" used by all, I came across what may, I hope, be interesting
surprises for readers.

    a.  The European Central Bank (ECB) officially considers the
Vatican, San Marino and Andorra to be "non-Euro" states.

    b.  The ECB carefully makes note in official releases that the
European Community (Strasbourg), and not the Bank, authorized these
three countries to issue their own Euro coins. 

        (1)  Since 1 January 1999 the Principality of Monaco has been
entitled to use the euro as its official currency. It does not have
the right to issue euro banknotes. Since 1 January 2002 it has been
entitled to issue euro coins with an annual volume of 1/500th of the
quantity of coins minted in France.

        (2)  Since 1 January 1999 the Republic of San Marino has been
entitled to use the euro as its official currency. It does not issue
banknotes, coins or monetary surrogates of any kind, with the
exception of the limited number of euro coins specified in the
Agreement. It is allowed to mint euro coins up to a maximum annual
face value of EUR 1 944 000.

        (3)  Since 1 January 1999 the Vatican City State has been
entitled to use the euro as its official currency. It does not issue
banknotes, coins or monetary surrogates of any kind, with the
exception of the limited number of euro coins specified in the
Agreement. It is allowed to mint euro coins up to a maximum annual
face value of EUR 670 000. In the year in which a vacancy occurs in
the Holy See, in a Holy Jubilee Year or in the year of the opening of
an Ecumenical Council, it may issue additional coins to the value of
EUR 201 000.

[(1) - (3) pasted from the EEC document.]

The agreements with these three were concluded by Italy and France
with the countries concerned, "on behalf"  of the Community, in
accordance with Article 111(3) of the EC Treaty. The agreement with
the Vatican was concluded by the Holy See "on behalf of the Vatican
City State".

What is intersting, is that for all three mini-states, they are
entitled to issue Euro denominated commemorative collector coins, but
the are, by these treaties, not legal tender outside of their own borders.

Historically, "the Franc coins of Monaco were not legal tender in
France, but the French currency was legal tender in Monaco" according
to the European Commission. 

"Italy has concluded several agreements with San Marino containing
provisions on monetary matters to the effect that notes and coins
issued by Italy were legal tender in San Marino. With the exception of
gold coins, coins issued by San Marino had the same shape, size and
composition as coins circulating in Italy. The agreements limited the
number of such coins that could be issued; these coins were legal
tender in San Marino and in Italy."

"Italy also has particular monetary links with the Vatican that are
based on an agreement whereby coins issued by Italy were legal tender
in the Vatican. Notes issued by the Bank of Italy were not legal
tender [!!!] but, in practice, circulated on Vatican territory. ...
The agreement limited the number of such coins that could be issued;
these were legal tender in the Vatican and in Italy."

["" text pasted from past press releases of the EC.]

My conclusions about all of this are that the Euros authorized by
Europe (Munzrecht, in German)) are "national Euros", in that they are
issued by countries outside of the Euro Zone, and commemorative,
collector Euro coins can be issued by these countries that would have
validity as legal tender only inside the sovereign nation that issued
them.

Regards to all.

LN
















--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
<Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
> Formally, you are right in a way, Len, as always. By the same token, the
> "universal" currency converter should then distinguish between a
German and
> a French Euro, because they both have a different physiognomy.
>
> And why don't they list then the old San Marino Lira like they do
with the
> other "obsolete" European currencies? I have a San Marino Lira coin
in my
> collection. And why not the Monaco Franc? I have a Monaco Franc coin
in my
> collection.
>
> Although this is increasingly off-topic: There was no Vatican Lira
in terms
> of currency. There was a Vatican Lira only in terms of physiognomy.
Or: Does
> anybody know of a Vatican Central Bank?
>
> The story is different with the old Luxemburg and Belgian Francs:
These were
> true currencies, just bound to each other. And probably this is also
so with
> the Panama, Argentina and Ecuador currencies (but here I am not so
sure).
>
> Definitely there is no Seborga currency either, although there are
coins for
> collectors that one can buy in any Seborga shop, like they are in San
> Marino, Monaco and the Vatican. The catholic church would be the
least to
> omit a chance to make money out of nothing. The fact that mints may be
> operating in these countries does not mean anything. If I want, I
also can
> produce my own coins at home.
>
> And as far as the Euro goes, there is only one, managed by the European
> Central Bank in Frankfurt. That Euros have different reverse sides
is only a
> political game and made for collectors. That member countries retain
their
> respective National Banks is only for statistics and to manage the
> conversion of "obsolete" coins and paper bills found in jacket
pockets when
> one pulls them out from a long-unopened wardrobe. As Germany is
concerned
> one can swap Deutsche Marks against Euros for an indefinite period...
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>   Von: L. A. Nadybal [mailto:lnadybal@c...]
>   Gesendet: Sonntag, 6. Februar 2005 05:44
>   An: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>   Betreff: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Seborga's currency
>
>
>
>   The Vatican had its own Lira - it issued its own coins (albeit some
>   produced by the Italian state mint).  With the Euro, the Vatican has,
>   from the European Central Bank, its own allocation from the universe
>   of Euros that can be issued by each monetary authority (as does San
>   Marino).
>
>   Vatican Euros are not Italian Euros although they are worth exactly
>   the same, and each countries' Euros circulate in both neighboring
>   countries and are mutually accepted as legal tender.
>
>   The Vatican situation wasn't much diferent in the Lira days than that
>   which exists in Panama.  As far as I know from my Canal Zone days,
>   Panama has the Balboa which is worth exactly the same as a US dollar,
>   but it has never issued Balboa banknotes, only Balboa coins.  For
>   banknotes, US dollar bills circulate.  Unlike Rome, however, Balboa
>   coins don't circulate in the US and are not legal tender here.
>
>   LN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfgang Schaub"
>   <Wolfgang.Schaub@c...> wrote:
>   > There is other nonsense in the "Universal Currency Converter": They
>   speak of
>   > a Vatican Lira (obsolete). To my knowledge this was always the
>   Italian Lira,
>   > as it is, by the way, in Seborga: The Luigino is fiction, as far
as it
>   > claims to be a currency; it is reality, as far as it is a souvenir
>   that you
>   > can buy in shops in Seborga at a rate dictated by Sua Altissima
Serenita
>   > Prince Giorgio I. Still to-date, Prince Giorgio believes it makes
>   sense to
>   > set the "exchange rate" at 1 : 6 to the US Dollar. Tomorrow he may
>   choose to
>   > set a new rate "bound" to the Euro or the Swiss Franc. He will go on
>   doing
>   > his nonsense at the pleasure of Silvio Berlusconi, and make a lot of
>   money
>   > for Seborga, through the stupidity of (American) tourists.
"Look, honey,
>   > it's so easy to change; they gonna give us 1 for 6 bucks".
>   >
>   > Wolfgang
>   >   -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
>   >   Von: Asher Samuels [mailto:asher972@y...]
>   >   Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Februar 2005 13:34
>   >   An: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Betreff: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Seborga's currency
>   >
>   >
>   >   It could be in there as a copyright trap.
>   >   --- Brendan Whyte <bwhyte@u...> wrote:
>   >
>   >   > If you go to the Universal Currency Converter
>   >   > http://www.xe.com/ucc/full.shtml
>   >   > you will find Seborga's Luigino currency listed alongside
all other
>   >   > national currencies...
>   >   > 1 SPL = 4.60780 EUR
>   >   > 1 EUR = 0.217023 SPL
>   >   >
>   >   > intriguing...
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > Brendan
>   >
>   >
>   >   __________________________________________________
>   >   Do You Yahoo!?
>   >   Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>   >   http://mail.yahoo.com
>   >
>   >
>   >

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>   > --
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/
>   >
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     BoundaryPoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   >
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   __________ NOD32 1.961 (20041230) Information __________
>   >
>   >   Diese E-Mail wurde vom NOD32 Antivirus System gepr|ft
>   >   http://www.nod32.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     BoundaryPoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
>   __________ NOD32 1.961 (20041230) Information __________
>
>   Diese E-Mail wurde vom NOD32 Antivirus System geprüft
>   http://www.nod32.com






__________ NOD32 1.961 (20041230) Information __________

Diese E-Mail wurde vom NOD32 Antivirus System geprüft
http://www.nod32.com