Thanks for reminding me, Mike. Some day I really will correct the text :)
BJB
--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002" <orc@o...> wrote:
> good stuff
> tho as previously mentioned
> the depa arc is actually 2 different arcs
> & the prismatic stone within the dupont compound
> or what you are calling the paleotrifinium
> is actually 3 & a half miles south of demdpa
> rather than the mile or so you are indicating
>
> also danson just arrived to confirm that mason & dixon actually did
> run their west line backwards from modern demdpa all the way to the
> delaware river near wilmington
> so you may want to correct for that new info in your presentation also
>
>
> in addition danson confirms all my previous data & surmises about all
> 3 of the mason dixon preliminary points i had previously identified
> without adding anything much new
> except he does place the original post marked west
> exactly 2 miles 79 chains 27 links east of modern demdpa
> correcting my admittedly fishy 3 & a half mile figure given below
> with a new position which i was able to plot approximately at topozone
>
> however the usgs topo does not confirm any extant monument anywhere
> near that position
> nor for that matter does it reveal the exact location of the
> stargazers stone 15 miles north of there
> nor of the southernmost point of old philly 31 miles east of that
> both of which latter however should be much easier to find from other
> data
>
> the real trick & piece de resistance will be in finding the original
> post marked west
> even using a gps receiver
> for this post was only a wooden marker & may no longer exist
>
>
> btw
> the point on the delaware river is called the post marked east
> & modern demdpa is called
> the post marked west on the west side & north on the north side
> to distinguish it from the original
> post marked west
> which was marked only west & only on the west side
>
> monty python couldnt have named them all better
> but these latter 2 especially appear to be a source of persistent
> confusion
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "bjbutlerus" <bjbutler@b...>
> wrote:
> > The bottom photo on this page shows the paleotrifinium:
> > http://www.bjbsoftware.com/corners/pointdetail.php3?point=24
> >
> > BJB
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079" <barbaria_longa@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin"
> <flynnk@r...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > As I recall, you're correct that the Post Mark'd West is *not*
> to
> > same as
> > > > PADEMD. It was a reference point that established the latitude
> for
> > the west
> > > > line. The actual tripoint was a bit west of the post.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately for those who like neat lines and angles, PAMDDE
> did
> > *not*
> > > > occur at the point where the New Castle Arc met the west line.
> > >
> > > & there is more to this story than meets the eye too
> > >
> > > the depa arc as it exists today is actually 2 different arcs with
> 2
> > > slightly different centers & 2 slightly different radii
> > >
> > > their imperceptible point of intersection falls near the middle
> of what
> > > appears to be a single sweep of arc running all the way from the
> > > delaware river down to the mason dixon line
> > >
> > > & the transition point of these 2 slightly different arcs
> > > which has nothing to do with the wedge
> > > is even marked by a special stone
> > > which i have also visited
> > >
> > > it is all extremely complicated & esoteric
> > >
> > > more below
> > >
> > >
> > > Instead, the
> > > > 800-acre or so Delaware Notch was the result. IIRC, the notch at
> > one time
> > > > was claimed by PA after the three counties once controlled by
> Penn
> > and his
> > > > heirs became Delaware instead of the three lower counties of
> > Pennsylvania.
> > > > If this claim had stood, the PADEMD tripoint would be due south
> a
> > mile or so
> > > > of where it presently is
> > >
> > > actually about 3 & a half miles south of demdpa
> > > which is a bit disconcerting
> > > because that is the about same distance east of demdpa i make the
> > > meridian of the stargazers stone & the post marked west out to be
> > >
> > > but it could just be a coincidence rather than any evidence of a
> > > misunderstanding
> > >
> > > the accounts are all very confused tho
> > >
> > > hopefully danson will settle everything
> > >
> > >
> > > anyway i have visited this paleo demdpa point too
> > > which you are referring to
> > > at the south tip of the wedge
> > >
> > > it is within the grounds of a top secret dupont chemical complex
> > >
> > > i once got a guided tour from their security people
> > >
> > > then when i tried at a later date to revisit this same compound
> > > i was refused admittance
> > >
> > > this was when i was seeking dew
> > > the westernmost point of delaware
> > > situated a short distance down the demd arc from paleo demdpa
> > >
> > > this was part of a cardinal news tour of delaware tho
> > > & was only coincidentally riddled with mason dixon stones
> > >
> > >
> > > the demd arc btw is based on a third center & a third radius
> > >
> > > & there are 2 distinct denj arcs too
> > > with still other specs
> > > making 5 entirely different arcs in all among the 4 states i think
> > >
> > > end insertions
> > >
> > > , and PA would have a miniscule "tooth" of territory
> > > > south of the Mason Dixon Line.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: m06079 [mailto:barbaria_longa@h...]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:01 PM
> > > > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] re mason dixon preliminary points
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > please see below for an addition to the following excerpts from
> > > > message 10452 about how mason & dixon got to their mdpa
> starting point
> > > >
> > > > the ref is to a book by edwin danson entitled drawing the line
> > > > which btw i still havent seen but am looking for
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002" <orc@o...>
> wrote:
> > > > > thanx kevin
> > > > > sounds like a book many of us will enjoy
> > > > >
> > > > > after some searching
> > > > > i believe i have found the location you mentioned on south
> street
> > > > > & will look for a commemorative plaque or something
> > > > > on the specified north wall
> > > > > next time i blow thru there
> > > > >
> > > > > are there any more data in the book about this most precious
> > > > > initial point
> > > >
> > > > > > > > Once it was established as a line 15 mi (IIRC) south of
> > > > > Spruce
> > > > > > > Street in
> > > > > > > > Philadelphia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you probably do recall correctly
> > > > > > > as it was to be 15 miles south of the southernmost point
> of
> > > > > > > philadelphia at that time
> > > > > > > but how did you arrive at spruce street for it
> > > > > > > & what part of spruce street if you can say
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > My error, it wasn't Spruce bur rather South Street, then
> known
> > > > > as Cedar
> > > > > > Street (and I used to live in Philly, no lessl shoulda
> known
> > > > > better).
> > > > > > Anyway, prior to Mason and Dixon's arrival in Philly, the
> joint
> > > > > commission
> > > > > > of PA and MD reps had stipulated with input from city
> officials
> > > > > that the
> > > > > > "southernmost point in the city" would be the north wall of
> a
> > > > > house on the
> > > > > > south side of Cedar (now South) Street near the corner of
> > > > > Second Street. The
> > > > > > constant latitude would be an E-W line 15 miles south of
> this
> > > > > point. Of
> > > > > > course, because the Delaware River flows SWerly here, Mason
> > > > > and Dixon had to
> > > > > > survey a course due west from the southernmost point, far
> > > > > enough to be west
> > > > > > of the presumed place where the New Castle Arc would drop
> > > > > below the West
> > > > > > Line (the point that should've become PADEMD but did not
> > > > > because of the
> > > > > > problem of The Wedge) and then drop 15 miles due south to
> > > > > mark the latitude
> > > > > > of the West Line. (This became the "Post Mark'd West,"
> which
> > > > > was actually
> > > > > > within the 12-mile New Castle Arc; Mason and Dixon had to
> > > > > proceed west from
> > > > > > there tp begin the actual PAMD West Line at the Arc limit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > (minus the land enclosed by the New Castle arc, of
> > > > > course),
> > > > > > > > there was a real concern that the MD-VA line (the right
> bank
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the Potomac)
> > > > > > > > might actually swing so far north that it would extend
> north
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the MD-PA
> > > > > > > > boundary. Now *that* would have been interesting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So what is the speculation here as to how that
> situation
> > > > > might
> > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > equitably resolved among VA-MD-PA?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > it might have been equitably resolved the same way kymotn
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > resolved
> > > > > > > which was for the surveyors to just follow the agreed
> specs
> > > > > > > whatever happened
> > > > > > > thus producing in that case the kentucky bend exclave
> > > > > > > & in our speculation a similarly detached western md
> exclave
> > > > > > > as you anticipate below
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > VA was supposed to have the lands south
> > > > > > > > of the Potomac; but if the river flowed north of 44 deg
> > > > > latitude,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > actually if the river flowed anywhere north of the
> latitude
> > > > > agreed in
> > > > > > > 1760 as you describe it above
> > > > > > > or in other words mason & dixons 39d43m17s6
> > > > > > > aka mdn of today
> > > > > > > for example 39d43m15s521 nad27 at mdne
> > > > > > > then it would have done as you say here below
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it would
> > > > > > > > have punctured PA and cut off eastern MD from western
> > > > > MD,
> > > > > > > creating a large
> > > > > > > > enclave. How else could this have been resolved?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i suppose a particularly generous & whimsical pa mightve
> > > > > given
> > > > > > > to md the part of itself that wouldve fallen south of the
> > > > > potomac
> > > > > > > & thus produce a sausage chain of 3 mary lands
> > > > > > > connected only by 2 mdmdpava tristate quadripoints
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > However, I wonder whether Virginia would have interceded
> and
> > > > > actually
> > > > > > claimed the land south of the Potomac that under these
> > > > > circumstances would
> > > > > > have been north of the Mason Dixon Line and therefore
> > > > > arguably in PA? Just
> > > > > > think, if the commissioners had said 17 miles instead of 15
> > > > > miles south of
> > > > > > the southernmost point in Philadelphia, we would have had
> > > > > this very problem.
> > > >
> > > > ok so i have returned in the interim to the question of how
> mason &
> > > > dixon got to their starting point
> > > > & tho i cant reconcile various conflicting latitude figures
> > > > i have determined from some online sources that the mentioned
> house
> > > > on the south side of south street near second street belonged
> to
> > > > thomas plumstead & joseph huddle at the time
> > > > & i am hoping this extra detail may be enough to find the house
> in
> > > > question
> > > > or its successor
> > > > even if it isnt marked today with a historical plaque
> > > >
> > > > but that is only preliminary point 1
> > > >
> > > > in the meantime
> > > > i have also zeroed in on the second preliminary point mentioned
> above
> > > > situated about 30 or 31 miles due west of the first one
> > > > on the john harlan farm near the forks of the brandywine
> > > > a point actually marked by mason & dixon
> > > > by a monument still known today as the stargazers stone
> > > >
> > > > so there are now at least these 2 preliminary targets
> > > >
> > > > but in addition i have also found some additional indications
> that
> > > > the actual initial point of the mason dixon west line
> > > > aka the post marked west
> > > > may not have been the same point as modern mdne or demdpa
> > > > but may actually lie some distance east of it
> > > > as i think the above description may also suggest
> > > >
> > > > so there may actually be 3 preliminary mason dixon points to
> find
> > > >
> > > > but can anyone offer any further info about any of these 3
> points
> > > > before i go off looking for them all
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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