Hello,
Consulted the treaty of Llívia ( nov. 12th, 1660 ), there is no mention
to any border marker. From 1660 to 1868 ( delimition act ) the
spanish/french border at La Cerdanya and Llívia was not defined, and
the communal borders were considered international borders. There were
many frontier conflicts ( see P. SAHLINS: Boundaries: the making of
Frenace and Spain in the Pyrenees ) because the border was not fixed.
There are several spanish and french maps from the enclave for military
and fiscal purposes, and all marked the enclave limit where the pedra
dreta is placed, as a turning point. There is a spanish catastral (
=fiscal map ) of 1732 ( see Sahlins pag. 87, il. 6 ) that marks Piedra
derecha (=pedra dreta ) at this point. In another map, a french
military one from 1840 ( Sahlins, p. 211, il. 8 ), the same turning
point is marked where the old stone is placed.
The treaty of limits ( 1866 ) mentions pontarró den Xidosa, the
place where the stone is placed, but not the pedra dreta. The comission
who delimatated the border took the old markers as a reference. From
Sahlins ( p.252): The problem of determining the comunal boundaries
was a two-stage process: first, the comissioners sought out documents
describing communal limits of earlier centuries; then tried to
determine where those boundaries could be marked on the ground. The
real issue, as General Callier noted, was the signification"of the
descriptions- the relation between the text and the terrain. Sahlins
mentions, in the case of Llívia, a dispute of limites with the town of
Angostrina. I think the pedra dreta as a undisputed boundary limit is
clear, because the marker number 1 is placed there, and according the
delimitation act :next to the old stone who has been the boundary of
Llívia, Ur and Càldegues. So we can assume that from 1660 from 1868
this stone was a international boundary marker de facto, despite it
was not mentioned in a treaty, just because a treaty of limits didnt
exist.
Ive attached a ortophoto map 1:5.000. Ive marked the boundary. The
stone is placed next to the turning point, where the border marker n.1
is placed.
Marcel
>glad to learn you are pursuing this further marcel & look forward
to >your=
> report from the 1660 text for it seems likely you will find this
>stone men=
>tioned there with the names & dates of antecedent treaties for ongoing
>pursu=
>it but i agree what better place could there be to dive right in
>than this=
> cerdanya treaty not only because you can but also because nobody has
>yet b=
>een able to qualify with treaty texts the rival candidate standing on
>the de=
>nl line
>m
--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., <marcelmiquel@n...> wrote:
>
>
> >> so my question here becomes when did this rock begin its service
as
> >an
> >> international boundary rock
> >> & that can probably be answered in the treaty texts
> >
> >Probably the treaty that divided the Cerdanya. Sixteen-something....
> >That's when Llivia town became detached from the surrounding
> >countryside.
>
> >Marcel?
> >
> > so in sum first i do think extreme congrats are in order here in
> any case
> >
> >And from me too.
> >
> >Peter S.
>
> Perhaps the partition treaty of Cerdanya (Treaty of Llívia,
> 12/11/1660), mentions the stone. Next monday I will be able to
confirm
> it, because I don't have the book near. But the final delimination
was
> in 1868. Before this delimitation act, the international border was
the
> ancient municipal border. So, the "pedra dreta" surely was "de facto"
a
> international boundary marker
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