Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Continent marker
Date: May 16, 2001 @ 00:02
Author: Brendan Whyte ("Brendan Whyte" <brwhyte@...>)
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>From: "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>_________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Continent marker
>Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:06:28 -0000
>
>With continental boundaries, sometimes the natural ones are adhered
>to. Natural means: according to animals, plants etc. occurring in one
>or another continent. A difficult criterium, of course. That is why
>man-made boundaries are sometimes used. The Asia-Europe one seems, on
>the northern part at least, to be based on ancient boundaries from
>the time the Russian empire had yet to reach beyond the Ural
>mountains. Siberia was like a Russian colony, when it was conquered,
>and not directly part of Russia proper.
>
>One of the questions is: is the Europe-Asia boundary running along
>the highest Caucasian mountains, or along the southern Soviet border
>(the southern Armenian and Azeri borders)?
>
>Another one: is Turkey split into a European and an Asian part? (I
>tend to think it is)
>
>3. And Cyprus? Is it European?
>
>4. New Guinea? Asian? Half Asian and half Australian (with the 141-
>Fly-141&a-bit boundary)? Australian (and thus a split Indonesia)?
>
>5. (Yes indeed) Egypt? Split or along the Egypt-Israel boundary? What
>about Gaza then?
>
>6. (Yes indeed too) Panama?
>
>7 and etc. The Azores, the Canaries, Jan Mayen, the Diomedes, all
>kinds of Pacific islands, ...., ...., etc.
>
>A lot of hypothetical and maybe not very interesting questions, but
>if I was an inhabitant of a potential intercontinental border area,
>especially if it was a dry one, I'd put a border mark there and let
>the tourists pour in...
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> > i like to think the 2 great canals form the 2 great divides of the
>4 great
> > continents
> > not that europe & australia & antarctica are not great mind you
> > but i have also seen the colombia panama & the egypt israel
>boundaries
> > represented as the true lines also
> >
> > still the canals are so nice & neat
> > & they do represent physical discontinuities
> > which seems to be the whole point
> >
> > & no harm in this either
> > since all 3 of the great intercontinental divides are thus actually
>human
> > artworks
> >
> > m
> >
> >
> > >
> > >The Asia-Europe boundary markers come as a huge surprise to me.
> > >
> > >I have always thought that the Ural mountain boundary was just a
>broad
> > >undefined aproximate line, and now there are markers!
> > >
> > >Where is the Asia-Africa boundary line then? and N - S America?
> > >
> > >Jesper
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "michael donner" <m@...>
> > >To: <BoundaryPoint@y...>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:30 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Contient marker
> > >
> > >
> > >gorgeous stuff peter
> > >
> > >this is our finest happy hour
> > >
> > >wonderful to see how a presumably all natural boundary still had
>to be
> > >diligently searched out & agreed upon
> > >& how an initially vague consensus gradually grew into official
>reality
> > >
> > > yet with seemingly nothing of consequence ever really dependent
>on it
> > >
> > >
> > >i would suggest that this round score of obelisks redeem all
>obeliskoids
> > >everywhere & naturally comprise a premium search category
> > >
> > >
> > >also the fact that parts of the intercontinental boundary dont
>coincide
> > >with any administrative boundaries only emphasizes its rarefaction
>& purity
> > >
> > >so it is truly a monumental line
> > >& especially so wherever it is not a boundary
> > >
> > >m
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>Another fine Europe-Asia boundary marker. Nice one.
> > >>
> > >>This boundary is intriguing: it is a continent boundary, but there
> > >>are sections of it that don't coincide with any administrative
> > >>boundary. This is why even the Russians don't always know for sure
> > >>where that boundary is.
> > >>
> > >>I found two Russian articles on the internet, which I have
>translated
> > >>for you. Do visit the second article yourself, though: it has nice
> > >>illustrations.
> > >>
> > >>The first one:
> > >>
> > >>The Sibirka - a boundary stream
> > >>
> > >>Yuriy Dunayev
> > >>
> > >>Ten kilometres west of Nizhneye Selo, on the road to
>Staroutkinsk, we
> > >>cross a bridge over the little river that bears the name Sibirka.
>It
> > >>starts on the eastern slope of the Kirgishan heights and after 16
> > >>kilometres pours its waters into the Chusovaya from the left.
> > >>The well-known scholar of Siberian history P.A. Slovtsov
>considered
> > >>this little river the boundary of ancient Siberia. Before the Ural
> > >>was visited by Alexander Humboldt and Gustav Rose, however, in the
> > >>world of science the name Ural was given to a less significant
> > >>height, which is situated considerably more to the west - between
>the
> > >>coach stations Kirgishanskaya and Grobovskaya, and which
>constitutes
> > >>the water divide between some tributaries of the Chusovaya and the
> > >>Ufa.
> > >>Peter the Greats ambassador to China, Izbrant Ides, considered,
>for
> > >>example, the right bank of the Chusovaya, where the Stroganov
> > >>settlements ended, at the place the Mezhevaya Utka flows into the
> > >>Chusovaya, as the beginning of Asia. Academician I.G. Gmelin, who
>is
> > >>known for his many years of travel through Siberia with S. M�ller,
> > >>travelled from Kungur to Yekaterinburg almost exactly along the
> > >>present Moscow-Siberia trail, and considered the Ural mountain
>range
> > >>to be one of the ridges that runs parallel to the Ural, and to
>which
> > >>belongs Klenovaya mountain, at the foot of which at that time the
> > >>boundary post was situated.
> > >>Doctor A. Erman from Berlin, who travelled across the Ural in 1828
> > >>together with the Norwegian scientist professor Heistens and
> > >>lieutenant Douai, had his attention drawn by his coachmen to
> > >>Kirgishan mountain, who said that that's where the boundary
>between
> > >>Russia and Siberia is. That's why it is not surprising that P.A.
> > >>Slovtsov too considered the little river Sibirka to be the
>boundary
> > >>river. He wasn't mistaken, either.
> > >>A testimony of the fact that the boundary used to run along this
> > >>little river is the find by the pupils of Staroutkinsk school no.
>13
> > >>of an ancient boundary stone on one of the banks of the Sibirka.
>This
> > >>stone divided, according to its inscription, Muscovy and the
>Sibirian
> > >>khanate. That is why the stream Sibirka, which flows into the
> > >>Chusovaya at a spot at 57�09' N. lat., is the most ancient
>boundary
> > >>of Russia and Siberia, and this is why it got its name, too.
> > >>By the way, A. Dmitriev in "Permskaya starina" mentions, that in
>1681
> > >>the village Sibirka was situated on the banks of the river - and
> > >>consisted of only one farm.
> > >>
> > >>Source: <<http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-
>06.html>
> > >>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
> > >><http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html>
> > >>http://uralstalker.ekaterinburg.com:8081/2000/07/0007-06.html
> > >>
> > >>The second one (yes, Russians seem to call every boundary marker
>an
> > >>obelisk!):
> > >>
> > >>Boundary guard in the Ural
> > >>
> > >>V. Terentyev
> > >>
> > >>More than three thousand kilometres the Ural mountains stretch
>from
> > >>north to south. This mountainous boundary in the centre of Russia
>is
> > >>firmly established and is maintained to this day. This is a big
>merit
> > >>of the great statesman and explorer of the Ural, Vasiliy Nikitich
> > >>Tatishchev. He is the first Russian that called these mountains
>Ural.
> > >>
> > >>Tatishchev was also the man that came to the conclusion the Ural
> > >>mountains were on the border of two parts of the world: Europe and
> > >>Asia. This boundary, drawn by V.N. Tatishchev two and a half
> > >>centuries ago, in spite of its conditional nature, still holds its
> > >>historical meaning, is known the world over and is fixed by many
> > >>obelisks with the inscription "Europe-Asia".
> > >>
> > >>The placing of these started in the Ural mountains already in the
> > >>last century and is still being continued. The boundary markers
>were
> > >>put up along the entire Ural range. They continue to attract
> > >>tourists, because every one of them is different and has its own
> > >>look. At present there are approximately twenty obelisks. A
>precise
> > >>figure cannot be given, because no one has ever counted them, and
> > >>news of them mostly comes from scholars of local history and
>tourists.
> > >>
> > >>In the central Ural area, in the Sverdlovsk province and around
> > >>Nizhniy Tagil, there are many interesting and originally
>constructed
> > >>border obelisks. At the occasion of the visit to our region of the
> > >>successor to the throne, the future Russian emperor Alexander II
>in
> > >>1837, the first marker "Europe-Asia" was placed in the Ural
> > >>mountains - a marble pyramid with the coat-of-arms of the czar.
>After
> > >>the October revolution it was destroyed, being a symbol of czarist
> > >>power. On this spot in 1926 a new obelisk was erected. It stands
>on
> > >>the Siberian trail some forty kilometres from Yekaterinburg, in
>the
> > >>Pervouralsk rayon.
> > >>
> > >>Another monument from the last century, built in 1868 by order
>and at
> > >>the expense of the gold industrialists of the Northern Ural, can
> > >>still be seen today. It stands at the village Kedrovka on the road
> > >>>from Kushva to Serebryanka. It is made of cast iron, and the form
> > >>resembles a bell tower. The central part is crowned by a red,
>raised
> > >>cupola, and on the corners are round columns, that are also
>crowned
> > >>by small cupolas. They used to be gilded, and on the back side the
> > >>czarist coat-of-arms shined. In the civil war the obelisk was
> > >>destroyed. But tourists of the Nizhnyaya Salda factory have
>recently
> > >>restored it.
> > >>
> > >>The address of another boundary marker is probably known to many:
>the
> > >>mountain pass crossing the Vysokie Gory ridge near the village of
> > >>Uralets on the road Nizhniy Tagil-Visim. It is a square column
>with a
> > >>height of six metres. On top of it is a model of the earth globe,
> > >>around which along a steel orbit turn a satellite and the space
> > >>ship "Vostok".
> > >>
> > >>>From Nizhniy Tagil another marker can be reached: at the 25th
> > >>kilometre of the Serebryanskiy trail you are met by a stele,
>placed
> > >>there in honour of the 50th anniversary of October.
> > >>
> > >>Interesting are the geographical location and the history of the
> > >>northernmost of all boundary markers "Europe-Asia". It stands at
>the
> > >>coast of the Yugorskiy Shar strait. Here the Ural range "dives"
>into
> > >>the waters of the Arctic Ocean. The marker was placed here in
>1973 by
> > >>the members of an expedition on the ship "Zamora", sailing from
> > >>Archangel to Dickson. This is a modest and simple obelisk. They
>got a
> > >>rusty anchor somewhere, attached a chain to it, and to a metal
>pipe a
> > >>sign was attached, with the inscription "Europe-Asia" on it.
> > >>
> > >>Further, along the whole Ural range, obelisks form a chain, going
> > >>>from north to south right to the city of Orenburg.
> > >>
> > >>Apart from the official "registered" obelisks there are in the
>Ural
> > >>mountains a whole range of do-it-yourself ones, put up by
>tourists,
> > >>school children, forest workers. For example, in the vicinity of
> > >>Tagil near the village of Yelizavetinskoye on the old winter trail
> > >>Tagil-Visim woodcutters have put up their sign: they planted a
>pine
> > >>pole of about four metres in the ground, and on a surface made
>flat
> > >>at the top they cut out the words "Europe-Asia". And in this way
>the
> > >>boundary signs are put up.
> > >>
> > >>On the pictures: this is how the boundary markers look like in the
> > >>Central Ural mountains; the northernmost obelisk on the bank of
>the
> > >>Arctic Ocean.
> > >>
> > >>Source: <<http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
> > >>http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
> > >><http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm>
>http://history.ntagil.ru/5_3_11.htm
> > >>
> > >>Peter S.
> > >>
> > >>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., granthutchison@c... wrote:
> > >>> > <<http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?
>http%>
> > >>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%
> >
> > >>><http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?
>http%>
> > >>>http://www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/index.html?http%
> > >>> 3A//www.trailblazer-guides.com/books/transsib/reading.html
> > >>>
> > >>> Ah, the only border monument mentioned in this group that I've
> > >>> actually visited. I hung out of the space between two carriages
>on
> > >>> the Trans-Siberian railway, camera at the ready, counting the km
> > >>> markers towards 1777. Then the thing shot past at 60mph, and I
>hit
> > >>> the shutter button more by reflex than anything else. The
>picture
> > >>> turned out perfectly composed, as if I'd stood beside the line
>and
> > >>> taken all the time in the world to line up and shoot!
> > >>> The railway side (the only side I saw) has "<-Europe" and "Asia-
> >"
> > >>in
> > >>> Cyrillic, as I recall. I'll dig out the slide and project it to
> > >>make
> > >>> sure.
> > >>>
> > >>> Grant
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
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> >
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