Subject: nyonqc location was Re: special congrats may be in order for czdepl improvement
Date: Dec 08, 2005 @ 02:52
Author: aletheiak ("aletheiak" <aletheiak@...>)
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--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, aletheia kallos <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
>
> yikes haha ok but this is the same map i began from in
> the middle of
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18922
> which has long since been truncated from the bottom of
> the present thread
> hahaha
> so at least we are now fully on all the same pages
>
> & i dont think it really is so hard to tell exactly
> what this map is saying
> for tho it too is truncated
> it clearly indicates & says by its placement of words
> & border lines
> as you can see if you view the full sheet here
> http://topozone.com/map.asp?
z=18&n=4983660&e=523103&s=100&size=l&u=6&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25
> that nyonqc equals turnpoint 1
>
> but tho it does clearly say that
> nevertheless
> your presumably more authoritative canadian topo gives
> us good reason to believe it is clearly mistaken in
> doing so
> just as are the many other maps i or we have seen that
> also show it that way
> for example
> http://www.racquetteriver.org/akwesasnemap.htm
>
> moreover if you switch to the still more severely
> truncated 100k & 250k scale topozone versions
> there is still enough river showing there to see that
> they repeat the mistakes of the 25k version
> rather than correcting anything in the direction of
> your again more presumably correct canadian topo
> at least regarding the course of caus westward into
> the river from saint regis
> but also regarding the nyoncq position
> as you can also see on a nontruncated 100k version
> here
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?
t=2&s=14&x=164&y=1556&z=18&w=1&qs=%7chogansburg%7cnew+york%7c
>
> so i think it is clear what the usgs is saying but
> almost equally clear that what it is saying is wrong
>
> or else we are wrong to be so trustful of official
> canada
> but lets not think so yet until we have played this
> out anyway
>
>
> & let me also answer you here before proceeding with
> the analysis that
> as you can also gather more clearly from the first
> link above
> the reason the nydpw is named at the top of that topo
> & in just that funny place of honor too
> is that it is being credited there right alongside the
> dept of the interior & usgs as a collaborator or
> contributor of data in that topo sheet
>
>
> but
> except for 1 or 2 inconvenient facts i am coming to
> i think the analysis & try might proceed full steam
> ahead already based on your 259 meter measurement on
> the canadian topo from turnpoint 1 to nyonqc
> because
> we apparently have the official ibs coords of the
> turnpoints shown on the canadian topo to either side
> of nyonqc
> & which lend all the more credence to its testimony
>
> as mentioned here
> http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/coordinates/SECT-K-83.txt
> turnpoint 1 is
> nad83 nlat45d00m22s6 x wlong74d40m13s9
> & apparently the next point to the southeast on the
> other side of nyonqc is
> nad83 nlat44d59m56s1 x wlong74d39m47s0
>
> but here is the first really inconvenient fact
> for it appears that the ibs name for this next
> turnpoint is
> mon andrew ellicott
>
> unless that simply means the lost ellicott rock is now
> out in the river
>
> but then it is still most puzzling to learn that thats
> where it might be
>
> however
> i am willing to assume until we can check these facts
> or find better data altogether
> that
> either
> the lost ellicott rock is indeed out in the river now
> or
> much more likely
> the labels but not the geocoords of the first 2 points
> on the list have somehow gotten reversed
> perhaps just owing to some inadvertent slipup
> or even more likely because some well meaning soul
> figured the word & point of origin must come at the
> beginning of the series
> & couldnt leave it alone but had to correct it into
> its present actually now incorrect form
>
> or else
> these ibs data are even more pied than that
> & the whole try based on them will go poof as soon as
> we realize how wrong they are
>
>
> & i am willing to assume all this because i met an old
> chief right there next to monument 774 in saint regis
> who assured me the lost ellicott rock was indeed also
> right there next to us under all the veggies on the
> riverbank
> as he & his naturally silent & pushy dog helped us off
> his land we were caught tresspassing on
>
> & this btw is the monument referred to in bus&ss p13
> under treaty of ghent 1814
> where in describing the beginning of the saint
> lawrence sector of caus it says
> in digest
> beginning at a stone monument erected by andrew
> ellicott in 1817 on the south bank or shore of the
> river now called saint lawrence which marks the point
> where the 45th parallel strikes it
> & thence running north 35d45m west into the river on a
> line at right angles with the southern shore to a
> point 100 yards south of the opposite island called
> cornwell
> thence turning westerly
> etc etc
>
> which raises the mentioned second inconvenient fact
>
> for this is more or less how the american maps do show
> it
> yikes
> & not at all how your canadian topo shows it
> yikes
> except
> the american angle is more like n45w than the
> specified 35ish
> oops
> whereas the angle on the canadian topo
> once it finally does turn northwest
> is indeed in the right n35w ballpark
> yikes & oops
>
> so in order to sidestep all that & continue to believe
> your canadian map might still be right
> which i would still like to do even if only to
> complete the try
> i have to hypothesize that an extra turn point was
> added here between 1814 & the present
> between the ellicott rock & turnpoint 1
> called now perhaps turnpoint 0 & or origin by the ibs
> as well as that the bus&ss text must also have
> committed one of its many typos in this supposedly
> 35d45m northwest bearing
>
> both of which i also gladly do
> making the whole try more & more provisional
> & less & less probable
> yet still sustainable
>
>
> & since you could measure the 259 meters all right
> i figure you can also easily measure the rest of the
> caus leg shown there which it is part of
>
> & then using
> & if possible also confirming by measurement
> the above ibs coords for the 2 caus turnpoints to
> either side of the nyonqc position on your topo
> it would then take just some computation from there
> to get us into the most probably correct 10 foot
> window for nyoncq as shown there
>
>
> so let me just pause here to see if you get & agree
> with this much
> & to see if you can advance the measurements & do the
> computations to get us there directly
> or if there are some other considerations i may have
> missed
>
> --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@o...> wrote:
>
> > OK - found a collared version which extends north a
> > bit - see attached.
> >
> > It is hard to tell exactly what this map is saying
> > since there does appear
> > to be a small line extending towards Canada at the
> > apex of the border in the
> > river and no sign of the ONQC border meeting the
> > international border
> > further southeast (incidentally plotting this on the
> > Canadian map shows a
> > distance difference of 259m). But then why would the
> > State of New York
> > Department of Public Works care about the exact
> > location of the ONQC border?
> > Clearly we need to find the answer by reference to
> > Ontario and Québec
> > sources since it is all about that provincial
> > border's alignment and the USA
> > has no (official) interest in this.
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Hugh Wallis
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] nyonqc location was Re:
> > special congrats may be
> > in order for czdepl improvement
> >
> >
> > OOPS - forgot the attachment
> >
> > Unfortunately I have been unable to obtain the
> > relevant USGS quad from
> > http://datagateway.nrcs.usda.gov since o44074h6 is
> > cut off at 45 deg N (see
> > attached) which is just south of this point and
> > there is no map available
> > from that source immediately north of that. If
> > anyone knows where I could
> > obtain the missing bit I would be grateful. I will
> > continue to search
> > meanwhile.
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:45 AM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] nyonqc location was Re:
> > special congrats may be
> > in order for czdepl improvement
> >
> >
> > agreed that skepticism is always a good idea
> > & i can add from some experience
> > especially so for this nyonqc baby
> >
> > & for indian & third world mapping in general of
> > course too
> >
> > so please dont put too fine a point on my previous
> > best guess of
> > a couple hundred meters toward the right bank etc
> >
> > &
> > thanx to this your still more reliable looking but
> > essentially identical map
> > which goes at least partway to the more
> > authoritative
> > data i had been looking for
> > it seems pretty likely now from their matching
> > depictions of the onqc turnpoints & particularly
> > their
> > matching slight overextension of onqc beyond nyonqc
> > into the usa
> > that my maps were at least partly copied or
> > generated
> > from yours
> > or rather lets say from the same master as yours by
> > &
> > large
> >
> > but i am still following your advice & being
> > skeptical
> > & just as skeptical of yours as of mine
> > because of the glaringly mistaken caus jog yours
> > takes
> > southwest from marker 774
> > rather than cutting this directly nw from the
> > 45degree
> > sector terminal & transition point
> > aka the lost ellicott rock
> > to turnpoint 1 properly so called
> > as we know it should from the ibc coords for the
> > markers & turnpoints
> > & downtown personal experience
> >
> >
> > which btw makes it totally impossible to take
> > advantage of the improvement your official canadian
> > mapping represents for purposes of refining this
> > guess
> >
> > up to say 300 meters or 100 yards
> > hahahahaha
> > which nevertheless i now emphatically do anyway
> > hahahaha
> > after having combined & crunched all the data we
> > have
> > so far developed
> > but relying especially & most emphatically in this
> > case on indian mapping
> > hahahaha
> > rather than the luxuries of either canadian first
> > world or american second world mapping
> > hahahhahahaha
> > hahahahahahaha
> > ahhhhhhh
> >
> > & in fact i would even like to wheedle that up to
> > roughly 302 meters now
> > back toward the ellicott rock
> > from the 10 foot square window represented by
> > turnpoint 1
> > with tears rolling down my cheeks
> > because after synthesizing as much presumptive
> > accuracy as possible from all 3 worlds
> > thats exactly where i land
> >
> > & i both trust it & am skeptical of it to that
> > extent
> >
> > & since we know the geocoords of the ellicott rock &
> > turnpoint 1 in degminsecdec
> > i think you might even be able to coax my position
> > out
> > of your gps calculator faster than i can get it
> > manually with pencil & paper after reinventing or
> > supplying the necessary spherical trig
> > which i will now proceed to do
> > but i am posting this now without delay in case you
> > or
> > anyone else who has been following this would like
> > to
> > join the chase & the race to presumptive caus2nyonqc
> > at 10 foot range
> >
> >
> > & i would also appreciate the backup of the
> > computational doublecheck
> > even if you dont race but only chase
> >
> > --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@o...> wrote:
> >
> > > I would be very sceptical of placing much/any
> > > reliance on that map for
> > > detailed and highly precise navigation purposes.
> > > There is no evidence that
> > > it is the output of proper surveying or reference
> > to
> > > official
> > > documents/treaties etc., and I would suggest that
> > > there is significant
> > > cartographic production latitude employed to make
> > it
> > > look nice and pretty
> > > (and perfectly useful for most purposes).
> > >
> > > I don't have the USGS quad for that area (but will
> > > get it shortly) but
> > > attached is the relevant section from the Canadian
> > > Government 1:50000 topo
> > > for reference.
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > > On Behalf Of aletheiak
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:44 AM
> > > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] nyonqc location was Re:
> > > special congrats may be in
> > > order for czdepl improvement
> > >
> > >
> > > agreed & no biggie in any case
> > > but a really interesting upshot of all this is the
> > > following pair of more
> > > detailed & reliable
> > > looking maps of nyonqc than i have ever seen
> > before
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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