Subject: Re: My last 3 Japanese Tripoints
Date: Nov 19, 2005 @ 13:40
Author: aletheiak ("aletheiak" <aletheiak@...>)
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--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@o...> wrote:
>
> OK- watchizu does not show maritime boundaries. However Yahoo does as
> follows
>
> Yamaguchi-Hiroshima-Ehime - http://map.yahoo.co.jp/pl?nl=34.00.00
> <http://map.yahoo.co.jp/pl?nl=34.00.00&el=132.30.00&la=1&fi=1&sc=7>
> &el=132.30.00&la=1&fi=1&sc=7
>
> Hiroshima Ehime-Kagawa and Hiroshima-Kagawa-Okayama -
> http://map.yahoo.co.jp/pl?nl=34.19.20.304
> <http://map.yahoo.co.jp/pl?nl=34.19.20.304&el=133.40.5.163&la=1&sc=7&ML.x=8&
> ML.y=6> &el=133.40.5.163&la=1&sc=7&ML.x=8&ML.y=6
>
> Okayama-Kagawa-Hyogo - http://map.yahoo.co.jp/pl?nl=34.19.20.304
> <http://map.yahoo.co.jp/pl?nl=34.19.20.304&el=134.3.25.961&la=1&sc=7&RU.x=10
> &RU.y=3> &el=134.3.25.961&la=1&sc=7&RU.x=10&RU.y=3
>
> and you can zoom in and out and move around on these too
>
> Cheers
>
> Hugh
>
>
> _____
>
> From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Hugh Wallis
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:20 PM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Re: My last 3 Japanese Tripoints
>
>
> Attached is a scan of the relevant page from the Kodansha bilingual Japanese
> atlas showing the possible maritime tripoints. I'll figure out the correct
> topos shortly too
>
> Cheers
>
> Hugh
>
>
> _____
>
> From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of aletheiak
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:04 PM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: My last 3 Japanese Tripoints
>
>
> actually i have already done most of that exercise for the reader at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/17423
> possibly the very email you mention
> as well as begun some of the other exercises you are also undertaking here
> now
> tho a complete set of hexaglyphs is probably what is most needed next
> for clarity simplicity ease convenience titillation etc
> so maybe thats for me to try on the next moonless night
> while i am also still assimilating all your findings
>
> &
> i still cant speak with any confidence beyond the apparently magical number
> of 44
> since i havent found a map that actually shows or even intimates more than
> these 44
> & dont read japanese or legalese very well
> but i suppose maritime tripoints are still possible just as you suggest
>
> & it is any clear confirmation of such hypothetical possibilities than is
> still really needed
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@o...> wrote:
> >
> > I believe at least 5 are wet - notably:
> >
> > Gifu Mie Aichi
> > Nagano Aichi Shizuoka
> > Tochigi Saitama Ibaraki
> > Ibaraki Saitama Chiba
> > Saitama Tokyo Chiba
> >
> > One I would characterise as damp (being in a marshy area according to the
> > topo maps) - notably:
> >
> > Niigata Gumma Fukushima
> >
> > There may be other wet ones that I just haven't had time to check the maps
> > for
> >
> > Also there are 4 possible additional ones (over and above the 44 you
> > identified in an earlier e-mail) that lie in the waters between the
> islands
> > of Shikoku and Honshu which may require some research and debate as to
> > whether they qualify as genuine tripoints (i.e., how wet is wet?) -
> notably:
> >
> > Hiroshima Yamaguchi Ehime
> > Hiroshima Ehime Kagawa
> > Okayama Hiroshima Kagawa
> > Okayama Kagawa Hyogo
> >
> > (Apologies for not getting them in correct alphabetical order but I'll
> leave
> > that as a exercise to the reader :)
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> > P.S. Just for the record here are all of them working from South West to
> > North East - I have also included prefectures that have no tripoints by
> > identifying those prefectures with which they have a border:
> >
> >
> >
> > Island Pref 1 Pref 2 Pref 3 Lat/Long
> >
> > Kyushu Nagasaki Saga
> > Kyushu Saga Fukuoka
> >
> > Kyushu Kumamoto Kagoshima Miyazaki
> > Kyushu Oita Kumamoto Miyazaki
> > Kyushu Fukuoka Kumamoto Oita
> >
> > Shikoku Ehime Kochi Tokushima
> > Shikoku Kagawa Ehime Tokushima
> >
> > Honshu Shimane Yamaguchi Hiroshima
> > Honshu Tottori Shimane Hiroshima
> > Honshu Tottori Hiroshima Okayama
> > Honshu Hyogo Tottori Okayama
> > Honshu Kyoto Hyogo Osaka
> > Honshu Osaka Wakayama Nara 34°22.986'N, 135°39.066'E
>
> > Honshu Kyoto Osaka Nara 34°46.668'N, 135°43.715'E
>
> > Honshu Nara Wakayama Mie
> > Honshu Fukui Kyoto Shiga 35°21.349'N, 135°46.120'E
>
> > Honshu Kyoto Nara Mie 34°44.299'N, 136°03.330'E
>
> > Honshu Shiga Kyoto Mie 34°47.477'N, 136°01.334'E
>
> > Honshu Fukui Shiga Gifu 35°39.506'N, 136°16.837'E
>
> > Honshu Gifu Shiga Mie 35°13.058'N, 136°24.903'E
> > Honshu Gifu Mie Aichi 35°08.077'N, 136°40.368'E
> > Honshu Ishikawa Fukui Gifu 36°05.164'N, 136°45.242'E
>
> > Honshu Toyama Ishikawa Gifu 36°17.948'N, 136°47.535'E
>
> > Honshu Nagano Gifu Aichi 35°17.345'N, 137°33.712'E
>
> > Honshu Nagano Toyama Gifu 36°23.380'N, 137°35.230'E
>
> > Honshu Niigata Toyama Nagano 36°45.962'N, 137°45.743'E
>
> > Honshu Nagano Aichi Shizuoka 35°12.734'N, 137°50.283'E
>
> > Honshu Nagano Shizuoka Yamanashi 35°38.661'N,
> 138°13.119'E
> >
> > Honshu Saitama Nagano Yamanashi 35°54.541'N,
> 138°43.742'E
> >
> > Honshu Gumma Nagano Saitama 35°59.109'N, 138°42.748'E
>
> > Honshu Niigata Nagano Gumma 36°44.297'N, 138°41.756'E
>
> > Honshu Yamanashi Shizuoka Kanagawa 35°24.026'N,
> > 138°54.974'E
> > Honshu Saitama Yamanashi Tokyo 35°51.276'N,
> 138°56.625'E
> >
> > Honshu Tokyo Yamanashi Kanagawa 35°40.312'N,
> 139°07.859'E
> >
> > Honshu Niigata Gumma Fukushima 36°56.422'N,
> 139°13.907'E
> >
> > Honshu Fukushima Gumma Tochigi 36°54.632'N,
> 139°23.594'E
> >
> > Honshu Tochigi Gumma Saitama 36°12.421'N, 139°39.853'E
> >
> > Honshu Tochigi Saitama Ibaraki 36°11.968'N,
> > 139°41.263'E
> > Honshu Ibaraki Saitama Chiba 36°05.438'N, 139°46.562'E
> >
> > Honshu Saitama Tokyo Chiba 35°46.954'N, 139°53.613'E
>
> > Honshu Fukushima Tochigi Ibaraki 36°55.990'N,
> > 140°15.853'E
> > Honshu Yamagata Niigata Fukushima
> > Honshu Miyagi Yamagata Fukushima
> > Honshu Akita Yamagata Miyagi
> > Honshu Akita Miyagi Iwate
> > Honshu Aomori Akita Iwate
> >
> > Sea Hiroshima Yamaguchi Ehime
> > Sea Hiroshima Ehime Kagawa
> > Sea Okayama Hiroshima Kagawa
> > Sea Okayama Kagawa Hyogo
> >
> > Hokkaido Hokkaido
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:06 AM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Re: My last 3 Japanese Tripoints
> >
> >
> > thanx i immediately understood or even anticipated all
> > this
> > as i had already dropped my class d guess myself last
> > night
> > as soon as i realized there just isnt enough parallax
> > between the 2 long views to support it
> > while i am not at all surprised to find our 922 tower
> > guesses & all your other data confirmations
> > do match up with mine so perfectly
> >
> > so yes i do very much see & agree now
> >
> > the tripoint will be found way closer to the
> > nonviewing tower than my imagined marker
> > & at something very much more on the order of only 2
> > degrees to the left of that tower
> > rather than 20 degrees
> > oops
> > hahahaha
> >
> > in fact almost closer to its base than is its own apex
> >
> > but so much the more likely obscured rather than
> > highlighted by veggies
> >
> > & thus elusive after all
> >
> >
> > but i would love to walk those last 100 or so steps
> > up
> > the communications tower first btw
> > even if only just for the previewing of the tripoint &
> > immediate triarea
> >
> > for this tower
> > rather than your viewing tower properly so called
> > could well prove to be the worlds most magnificent
> > tripoint viewing tower
> >
> >
> > & to climb those steps btw not only for that obvious
> > reason
> > but also to at least address & relish the probability
> > in that tower
> > of reaching some absolutely true
> > rather than conveniently compromised & moderated
> > altitudinal extremity
> > of some real place perhaps
> > even if not a whole prefecture
> > & conceivably even of 2 real places at once
> > in view of its ridge line borderline location
> >
> > & even if actually shimmying up to the very top of the
> > tower proves impossible
> >
> > or even if the altitude of the top of the peak tower
> > proves higher
> >
> > albeit luckily higher in both those places at once
> > also
> > hahaha
> > for happily too it looks like a close call between
> > these state line tower tops for the altimeters
> >
> >
> > & i am also pleased to add to your overall analysis
> > that my admittedly still crude & preliminary
> > punctoscopy of the prefectural tripoints of japan
> > suggests that as many as 36 of the probably 44 of them
> > in all are in fact dry
> >
> > so we have many more prospective markers to at least
> > try for
> >
> > in fact japan is looking almost as good in this regard
> > as the berkshire county town tripoints
> > where i am still at least expecting & hoping for all
> > 44 markers out of all 44 tripoints
> >
> >
> > but of course every try is its own reward too
> > whether wet dry marked unmarked or even known at all
> > & i very much enjoyed & appreciated all 5 of yours
> > here in its & their own right too
> >
> > --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@o...> wrote:
> >
> > > OK - let me try to set the stage a bit better.
> > >
> > > The tower you see in my photograph is not a viewing
> > > tower as far as I can
> > > tell - it looks more like a communications tower. My
> > > photo was taken from
> > > the top of the viewing tower which is what I paid
> > > 100 yen (which is only
> > > about CDN 1.00) to go up and which is the white
> > > tower pictured on the right
> > > hand side of the ticket.
> > >
> > > The radio tower is the taller of the two towers but
> > > lower down as you
> > > surmise and is approximately at the point on the map
> > > marked with a spot
> > > height of 922m I would guess. The viewing tower is
> > > approximately at the
> > > point on the map marked as a trig point (with a
> > > triangle) - about 100m from
> > > the geocache. My GPSr indicated that the tripoint
> > > was approximately 800m
> > > from the viewing tower in the direction of the radio
> > > tower. From the map I
> > > conclude that it is beyond the radio tower.
> > >
> > > I see the white post you refer to but, from the
> > > above analysis and the map I
> > > would think this is unlikely to be the tripoint
> > > marker since it seems to be
> > > too far to the left to my thinking.
> > >
> > > From my observations at the four dry tries I made
> > > (and, indeed, the wet one)
> > > I conclude at this stage that boundary and tripoint
> > > marking is sporadic in
> > > Japan. Some of the markers I photographed (the stone
> > > ones) appear to be
> > > older, some newer, and some (the plastic ones which
> > > are very firmly embedded
> > > in the ground, by the way - I did try tugging on
> > > them) very new indeed,
> > > possibly recently surveyed for specfic reasons such
> > > as the construction of
> > > the golf course etc. It is also instructive that in
> > > the area of
> > > Kanagawa-Shizuoka-Yamanashi, the only border markers
> > > I could locate were
> > > those on the Kanagawa-Yamanashi and the
> > > Shizuoka-Kanagawa borders - the
> > > Shizuoka-Yamanashi border did not appear to be
> > > marked, providing further
> > > evidence for my supposition.
> > >
> > > In summary - I don't think that all dry tripoints in
> > > Japan are physically
> > > marked on the ground.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Hugh
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > > On Behalf Of aletheiak
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:19 PM
> > > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: My last 3 Japanese
> > > Tripoints
> > >
> > >
> > > now hugh about fsibtc again
> > > at the bottom of http://tinyurl.com/9gzsz
> > > i have still not been able to get completely clear
> > >
> > > you say there is a viewing tower at the top of the
> > > mountain
> > > & you show 2 towers
> > > either one of which could conceivably be the one you
> > > mean
> > >
> > > but then i also would have just guessed you
> > > photographed the taller but
> > > apparently lower
> > > tower from the shorter but apparently higher one
> > > that is
> > > until i saw the 100 yen price tag on the latter
> > >
> > > &
> > > the slight difference between the 2 viewing angles
> > > of this taller lower
> > > tower also suggests
> > > you may have taken your magnificent panoramic
> > > atmospheric photo of it not
> > > from the
> > > actual summit & small tower & geocache point
> > > necessarily at all
> > > like the other one
> > > if indeed they were all 3 of them at this singular
> > > mountaintop location
> > > as perhaps hinted by you & the gcm5pp dot & or
> > > nearby triangle on your map
> > > swatch
> > > but rather
> > > from perhaps much closer to the bottom center of
> > > this map swatch
> > > i would guess
> > > where you also evidently passed
> > >
> > > & i have guessed this
> > > as well as provisionally placed the tall tower on
> > > the elevation point
> > > indicated as 922 on the
> > > map swatch
> > > just for lack of anything more definitive to go on
> > > which perhaps you can still provide in correction
> > >
> > > & then
> > > continuing hypothetically by measuring the viewing
> > > angle toward the tripoint
> > > at about 20
> > > degrees left of the centered tower based on all the
> > > above surmises
> > > lo & behold
> > > what do i see there in plain view but a tall thin
> > > white post
> > > in a light brown patch set off by a dark green
> > > background
> > > at roughly kilometric range
> > > about midway between the tower & the power pole line
> > > cum perhaps roadway to
> > > its left
> > >
> > > but do you follow any of this or
> > > more importantly
> > > do you
> > > s e e
> > > in your pic the object i am talking about
> > >
> > > for thats a clear class d guess
> > > rather than some impossibly elusive class e hope
> > >
> > > or has my imagination run away from us already
> > >
> > >
> > > but anyway
> > > while you are mulling & or laughing over that
> > > a perhaps bigger question
> > > now that we have had serious tries at so many as 4
> > > dry ones
> > > is
> > > do you imagine they are all in fact marked
> > > with some just being more elusive than others for
> > > various reasons
> > > or do you suppose they are indifferently &
> > > haphazardly marked as chance
> > > would have it
> > >
> > > in other words
> > > given sufficient time & care & luck etc
> > > from all youve seen & been able to learn for sure as
> > > well as just guess
> > > do you think you would have bagged all 4 of these
> > > class a
> > > just like you surely did with knszyn
> > > & that we can therefore still expect or hope there
> > > are as many marked
> > > prefectural tripoints
> > > in japan as there are dry ones
> > >
> > > or is it still too soon to hazard any such
> > > generalization
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Wallis"
> > > <hugh@o...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Report is now available at
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://freepages.misc.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/Japan_2005-11-12_to_2005-11-1
> > > > 4/ - a.k.a. http://tinyurl.com/9gzsz
> > > >
> > > > This covers my visits to:
> > > >
> > > > Kyoto-Mie-Nara
> > > > Kanagawa-Shizuoka-Yamanashi
> > > >
> > > > and
> > > >
> > > > Ibaraki -Fukushima-Tochigi
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Hugh
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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