Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Ile de la Conference
Date: Mar 14, 2001 @ 22:35
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
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>
>I think it's _you_ who's straightening _me_ out now, Michael. I was
>looking at the Descheemaeker map
>in my msg. 1481, but according to all the written stuff I have read about
>it, it might be the way
>you describe it.
>
>But reading the Bayonne treaty again, I come to a different conclusion
>still, which could mean there
>are no tripoints, but an enclaved condominium!
>
>"Art.9
>>From Chapitelacoarria to the mouth of the Bidasoa, at the Rade du
>>Figuier, the middle of the main
>stream of the waters of this river, at low tide, will form the line of
>separation of the two
>Sovereignties, without changing anything about the actual nationality of
>the islands, the Ile des
>Faisans continuing to belong to two Nations".
>
>So there is talk of the main stream. Nowadays, this is the branch on the
>French side. But this
>hasn't always been the case. At one time, Descheemaeker writes, the French
>branch almost
>disappeared, and some work had to be done in order for the island to
>remain an island. But since
>then all sorts of land reclaiming works along the river have taken place,
>and given the fact that
>there are a number of islands in the river, the main stream probably
>changed over the years. I think
>(but this isn't based on anything I have read) that the main stream at the
>time of the signing in
>1856 is the important one here, and that the border hasn't changed since
>(in that respect. What I
>mean is: not changed except when explicitely done in other treaties or
>similar documents).
>
>So let's assume that the French branch was the main one in 1856. Then the
>condominium is entirely
>surrounded by Spanish internal waters.
>
>Sorry for killing off the tripoints. But a centre line in any river branch
>just doesn't touch any
>island's shoreline!
>
>Now for the Txingudi bay (the part between the main railway bridge and the
>pierheads: Maybe it was
>at one stage included in the Figuier condominium, but according to the
>topo map (IGN 1:25k) not
>anymore. A clear boundary line has been drawn all the way to the
>pierheads, and even a little beyond
>that, but that last part doesn't count I would think. The boundary seems
>to follow the centre of the
>stream at low tide, but generally passes very close to the spanish shore.
>This seems to be partly
>because the Spanish have done a lot of land reclaiming here, building the
>runway for the
>Donostia/San Sebastián airport at Hondarribia there (very Hongkong-style).
>If an aircraft overshoots
>the runway and ends up a couple of meters further in the water, it
>definitely has crossed the
>border! By the way, there is an international agreement between France and
>Spain on the crossing of
>French airspace for aircraft in and out of Donostia airport. The only
>approach is from sea, flying
>over Hendaye Plage, and then over Txingudi bay. It is a tiny airport, but
>can take (and takes! I've
>seen it) aircraft up to DC 9's.
>
>Peter S.
>
>michael donner wrote:
>
>> first thanx for the tactful hint peter
>> as all these franco spanish condo tripoints could be called frfrspsp only
>> in my fractured isofips
>> a coinage as adulterated as punctology itself
>> & of course they should all be changed to esesfrfr in the kings iso
>> tho the suffixes 1 2 3 & 4 can still probably continue to serve pro tem
>> to indicate the generally ascending &or eastward progression of the 4 such
>> points you have turned up so far
>> of which i take it we were talking here about number 3 in the line
>>
>> your observations themselves are a little puzzling to me tho because i
>> thought you had indicated earlier that the all dry or upper condo is the
>> island itself
>> or is coterminous with the island
>> & also that the international boundary is defined in such a way as to meet
>> this condo boundary precisely at the upstream & downstream extremities of
>> the island
>> or at least to make a sort of wedge out of it i think you said
>>
>> your map in <http://www.egroups.com/message/boundarypoint/1481>
>>http://www.egroups.com/message/boundarypoint/1481 makes this
>> pretty clear too
>> if it can be believed
>>
>> perhaps i have only imagined some of these details
>> but all together they are what led me to predict that the 2 ile de la
>> conference tripoints at least would be easy to put a finger on
>>
>> & your pic in message 1703
>> <http://www.originepyrenees.com/images_mag/ile.jpg>
>>http://www.originepyrenees.com/images_mag/ile.jpg
>> now that i compare it to the map
>> appears to give a very good view indeed of tripoint esesfrfr3 at left
>> as well as a pretty fair view of tripoint esesfrfr4 at right
>>
>> however if the international boundary does cleave invariably to a thalweg
>> or thalwegs
>> as you now seem to be indicating
>> then it couldnt & wouldnt even touch the island
>> & if it does describe the center line of the river invariably
>> as you may also mean
>> then it could only strike the island by chance if indeed it did so at all
>> & would thus in just about every possible case not produce the neat results
>> i had envisioned
>> & on which i based the guesses made both above & below
>>
>> your guess that it might be off frame at left would place it within the
>>river
>> where i was least expecting it based on the above info
>> & moreover you seem to be talking about 3 thalwegs here in all
>> as if to indicate this is a river confluence rather than an ordinary
>>island
>> & i know there was some reference made to changes in the river but
>> but perhaps you can straighten me out here again too
>>
>> m
>>
>> >
>> >Ile de la Conference: you're looking eastwards. So the point towards
>> >you is the westernmost point (frfreses[number]). Still, it being at
>> >the meeting point of the center lines (or thalwegs) of the two
>> >branches of the Bidasoa and the center line/thalweg of the
>> >continuation of that river, it might be that it is just beyond this
>> >picture at your left.
>> >
>> >Peter S.
>> >
>> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> >
>> > evidently our first close look here at either frfrspsp3 or
>> >frfrspsp4
>> >> as i cant tell which end of the ile de conference this is
>> >>
>> >> m
>>
>>
>>
>>
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